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Thanks, Bigbore. Your rifle isn't far off from mine. Do you mean the rifle you have matches the rifle serial number on the scope? If it does, you have a real keeper.
Jim
Jim
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It took me this long to find where I hid the book, but what are the odds it's real? It too is numbered to the gun/scope.Comment
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Impossible
You have better odds of winning the Powerball Lottery.
The rifles and scopes were separated long ago (1918 - 1919 time frame). The scopes were sold at auction at a later date, and some of the rifles were plugged and returned to service, some were destroyed, and some just wore out. The original scoped rifles were shipped to France as fast as they could be made (see WWI cablegrams), but were discovered to be very unreliable, and required frequent and lengthy repair (same cablegrams). Their use was discontinued during WWI around March of 1918 (same cablegrams). All the scopes were not mounted as a result, leaving a load of scopes with no serial number stamped into the rail, but since the rifles were made with the holes drilled into them ahead of time, the rifles existed with the appropriate holes. A host of fakers have stamped the serial number of their rifle (real or not) into the rail of a blank scope in an effort to increase the value of both. A quick survey of a stamped serial number will reveal its origin in a few seconds.
Sales databases like mine or Eyeberg's often reveal a scope that was sold without a serial number and then appears later with a serial number. Since the stamp font and letter height used by SA are both a bit oddball, anyone familiar with the scopes can spot a fake in a split second. A favorite practice of the soldiers that used them was to urinate on the frame to cause it to rust and tighten up. As a result, most frames are heavily pitted, as is yours. Since the stamps were all in the same place in a jig, a faker has to stamp his serial number over the corrosion pits, which stands out like a big red flag. You might want to check yours.
To find the matching scope for a rifle is next to impossible, but finding a TM that matches as well as the scope is absurd. First of all, who in WWI had one of those stamps in a combat zone (or any other zone)? Personal and official records indicate the rifles were issued in combat without any instructions (TM's), so if the TM was real, the person to whom the rifle was issued would have had to stamp that number on that TM in a mud filled trench in France. I would say the odds are on a par with walking across Texas and finding three parts of the Shuttle that fit together.
jt
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Makes sense to me.You have better odds of winning the Powerball Lottery.
The rifles and scopes were separated long ago (1918 - 1919 time frame). The scopes were sold at auction at a later date, and some of the rifles were plugged and returned to service, some were destroyed, and some just wore out. The original scoped rifles were shipped to France as fast as they could be made (see WWI cablegrams), but were discovered to be very unreliable, and required frequent and lengthy repair (same cablegrams). Their use was discontinued during WWI around March of 1918 (same cablegrams). All the scopes were not mounted as a result, leaving a load of scopes with no serial number stamped into the rail, but since the rifles were made with the holes drilled into them ahead of time, the rifles existed with the appropriate holes. A host of fakers have stamped the serial number of their rifle (real or not) into the rail of a blank scope in an effort to increase the value of both. A quick survey of a stamped serial number will reveal its origin in a few seconds.
Sales databases like mine or Eyeberg's often reveal a scope that was sold without a serial number and then appears later with a serial number. Since the stamp font and letter height used by SA are both a bit oddball, anyone familiar with the scopes can spot a fake in a split second. A favorite practice of the soldiers that used them was to urinate on the frame to cause it to rust and tighten up. As a result, most frames are heavily pitted, as is yours. Since the stamps were all in the same place in a jig, a faker has to stamp his serial number over the corrosion pits, which stands out like a big red flag. You might want to check yours.
To find the matching scope for a rifle is next to impossible, but finding a TM that matches as well as the scope is absurd. First of all, who in WWI had one of those stamps in a combat zone (or any other zone)? Personal and official records indicate the rifles were issued in combat without any instructions (TM's), so if the TM was real, the person to whom the rifle was issued would have had to stamp that number on that TM in a mud filled trench in France. I would say the odds are on a par with walking across Texas and finding three parts of the Shuttle that fit together.
jtComment
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Of the few "Matching" (Tongue in cheek) W&S scopes/Rifles I have seen they ALL have the serial number in an erratic row, not well ordered as Jim mentioned.
Marty
Badger OrdnanceComment
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I understand completely.
Many people think these rifles were thrown together for combat, but they were meticulously assembled by SA. The receivers were D&T'ed prior to hardening, the barrels were all star gauged (no markings), and the scopes were matched to the rifles by placing the rifle serial number in the inner rail of the scope and shipped as a unit. The rifle serial number was stamped in a jig (SA didn't hand stamp anything but inspection codes). The same shop built all the rifles as they were short handed due to having to man the rebuild armory in France. All the stampings will look exactly alike (except for the change in number) and be in the same place on the rail. In other words, the rifles were well planned and executed in their production and assembly.
I personally only know of one matched set (rifle w/M1913 W&S). I don't own it unfortunately, but I know who does.
The rifles are very accurate. I can consistently hit a half-man target at 350 yards shot after shot. The Marines at Stoney Point recently put over 100 rounds through mine nailing the 350 and 500 yard targets. I had sighted it in dead on at 100 yards before the shoot. We just dialed in the required elevation using the scope adjustments and it hit where it was aimed. It is an awkward rifle to shoot, and will do a job on your eye.
The serial number on your rail was not stamped by SA. It was stamped after the corrosion took place, and NO ONE in SA would have gotten the numbers backwards or upside down. The men who worked at SA were the ultimate in professional armorers, and their work was consistently on a par with anyone on earth. Their inspection routines were thorough beyond belief, and their standards were near to perfection as one could get.
Badger is well acquainted with these scopes and rifles, by the way. Don't you have a series of pics of one posted somewhere, Badger? Seems to me I remember you having a couple of them and selling one.
jtComment
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