Surplus LC brass

[barretcreek]

Anyone have experience with fired LC 7.62 brass? I have heard this is usually out of MG and is pain to size, needs trimming and sometimes the base is expanded a lot. Correct?

[m1ashooter]

I haven't had problems with surplus 7.62 brass.

[Sunray]

"...Correct?..." Sometimes. Nothing else but MG's and DM M-14 rifles are using 7.62NATO anymore.
You need to check the lengths and trim, chamfer and deburr, as required only, and FL size BNIB brass too. The milsurp 7.62 stuff usually needs the primer pocket swaging removed too. A one time nuisance thing.
Never heard of any brass being particularly hard to size though.

[us019255]

I purchased a bunch a number of years ago. One batch had about 25% that had been fired in a machine gun with excess head space. There was a ring from where it was stretched. I learned the hard way to check each case for a ring and discard the bad one's. The rest was fine and reloads many times with no problem.

Yes, you do have to ream primer pocket and check length. Big deal.

[fguffey]

I have heard of reloaders having trouble sizing brass they assumed was fired in a machine gun. None of the reloaders that were complaining measured the length of the case from the shoulder to the case head before sizing and again after sizing so they did not know if they were trying to size a work hardened case or a case that was fired in a machine gun. If the case was fired in a machine gun it would be a once fired case.

None of the complainers listed the press they were using, they did not list the lube they were using and then there was no mention of the dies used. I have forming dies, if a case starts to get the best of one of my presses I change to forming dies, if the case starts to get the best of my forming dies I switch lubes. I use a no-name lube for the tuff-to-size cases; for most of my work any-old-lube will do.

I have never experienced difficulty when sizing 7.62 NATO cases, I have formed 308 W cases from 30/06 cases. I know; WHY? I use 30/06 cases to tighten chambers with loose necks. It did not improve the accuracy of the bench rest type rifles but ‘again’ reloaders was complaining about loose necks.

F. Guffey

[Hefights]

I used to get mine from Top Brass (Scharch Manufacturing) out of Colorado, they also cater to Cowboy Action shooters like Evil Roy, specializing in handgun brass. Their processed LC 7.62 was great quality. Now it appears to be running 28 cents per piece processed, very expensive, but you would not have to worry about it giving you any problems.

With MG fired brass, some will likely never come into tolerance no matter what dies you use, you could try small base if you get some that is stretched bad and see how it does.

[fguffey]

With MG fired brass, some will likely never come into tolerance no matter what dies you use, you could try small base if you get some that is stretched bad and see how it does.

tolerance no matter what dies you use, you could try small base if you get some that is stretched

Does anyone measure brass before and again after firing? Does anyone measure fired brass after purchasing? Does anyone measure the gap between the bottom of the die and top of the shell holder before lowering the ram?

F. Guffey

[Hefights]

I measure after purchase, and during re-sizing process, and if the brass cannot get into specs to pass a case gage, it doesnt get loaded into my semi auto rifles.

I get by real good with the tools of the trade, and common sense.

[fguffey]

I measure after purchase, and during re-sizing process, and if the brass cannot get into specs to pass a case gage, it doesnt get loaded into my semi auto rifles.

I have case gages, my case gage can be used for measuring fired and sized cases. For most that is not a problem but my case gages do not measure machinegun fired cases. I also have chamber gages, if a case fails my chamber in a chamber gage I will guarantee the case will not chamber in one of my rifles.

The problem: The diameter of the case gage is too large; the case gage is a datum based tool. It measures the length of the case from the datum to the case head and from the datum to the end of the neck. The perceived problem with the machine gun case is believed to be the case is removed from the chamber with enough pressure remaining in the chamber to stretch the unsupported case in length and in diameter.

"length and in diameter": The case gage measures the length of the case from the shoulder/datum to the head of the case but the case gage is used to measure fired cases. So I ask again; does anyone measure the gap between the bottom of the die and top of the shell holder before lowering the ram? I do; I measure the gap between the bottom of the die and top of the shell holder with a feeler gage. If my press, die and shell holder does not or can not return the case to minimum length/gull length sized there will be a gap. If the case whips my press there are ways to increase the presses' ability to overcome the cases ability to resist sizing.

I have presses that are marginal, I do not use them but I have them 'JIC' as in just in case.

F. Guffey

[fguffey]

And then there is the chamber the case is fired in; manufactures of ammo do not make ammo for two 7.62 NATO chambers meaning the machinegun chamber is generous. When fired the case forms to the chamber in length and diameter. Returning the case to minimum length requires the press to have the ability to overcome the cases' ability to resist sizing.

F. Guffey

[fguffey]

http://dutchman.rebooty.com/1895Chile.html

And then if the difference between the 308 W chamber and the 7.62 NATO chambers can be believed the 7.65 NATO chamber starts out longer and more generous. And then there is that thing about being pulled/or is it pushed from the chamber before the pressures drops.

F. Guffey

[p246]

[QUOTE=fguffey;477566]http://dutchman.rebooty.com/1895Chile.html

And then if the difference between the 308 W chamber and the 7.62 NATO chambers can be believed the 7.65 NATO chamber starts out longer and more generous. And then there is that thing about being pulled/or is it pushed from the chamber before the pressures drops.

You brought up a great point here. Being a FN FAL guy I ran into an issue with a build in the 90s. It was a South African Metric Kit that ended up in Rhodesia. This was one of the beater kits on the cheap. I think I paid 89.00 for the kit. Built it on an Imbel Receiver. Once built it would shoot 7.62 by 51 fine. With 308 brass I had to be opened up the gas adjustment and it stretched the case badly length wise. Being a newb at the time I had to consult with a gunsmith. The chamber was generous even for 7.62 and he told me to stay away from 308. It would shoot steel case Russian 308 though FYI.

There is also an intel report from Syria where ISIS was having issues shooting commercial 308 in their FN FALs. I hope a few of those blew. Anyway there is a difference as I learned the hard way.

As far as measuring shoulder to base, flash hole size etc. I do now but bench rest reloading got me into that. In the early days I shoulder bumped to SAMMI specs and trimmed.

If my case work hardens below the shoulder in 308 or 7.62 I scrap them, but I have access to free brass in 4 calibers those being two of them.

I generally like Lake City Brass. I was given A bunch of LC 69 in 30-06 and got a bucket full of 7.62 X 51 about 10 years ago. It's mixed year but has been consistent.

[nf1e]

Used a lot of LC brass over the years. Only stuff I have had a problem with is just recently LC 10 from M80. This photo shows case failure after 1st loading. I just dumped a few hundred in the salvage bucket.

[fguffey]

Used a lot of LC brass over the years. Only stuff I have had a problem with is just recently LC 10 from M80. This photo shows case failure after 1st loading. I just dumped a few hundred in the salvage bucket.

So you did not measure the length of the case from the shoulder to the case head before firing and you did not measure the length of the case from the shoulder to the case head after sizing? Meaning you do not know if your chamber caused the case head separation; nor do you know if the cases heads were well on their way to separating before you started.

F. Guffey

[nf1e]

Of coarse I did. I started with new M80 147 gr LC 10. These would have been in the neighborhood of 1.627 -8 before 1st firing. When resized I bring them to 1.628 and they are fired in .308 chambers that I cut to 1.632. If they had been good brass initially, this would not have happened. I run many K of varied brass annually and this is the first time in over 50 years that I have seen this result. Normally I can expect a minimum of 4 to 6 loadings on good brass. I just ran a batch of RA-68 600 rounds that is on it's 5 th loading and will join the LC10 in the salvage bucket in the next couple of weeks.