Surplus LC brass

[fguffey]

Used a lot of LC brass over the years. Only stuff I have had a problem with is just recently LC 10 from M80. This photo shows case failure after 1st loading. I just dumped a few hundred in the salvage bucket.

These would have been in the neighborhood of 1.627 -8 before 1st firing. When resized I bring them to 1.628 and they are fired in .308 chambers that I cut to 1.632.

I understood everything you said; The difference in length between the case from the shoulder of the case to case head and shoulder of the chamber to the bolt face was .004". I can reduce the clearance to .000" but there is no manufacturer that makes a new case for long chambers so I form long cases to off set the extra length of a long chamber. Then there is that part that is complicated; that would be the part that comes when the trigger is pulled: Reloaders are infatuated with 'moving the shoulder', I always ask; "How do you do that?" because I find it almost impossible and then they claim they 'bump' the shoulder and again I ask; "How do you do that?".

Long chamber? You do not have a long chamber and there is no reason for you to experience case head separation on the first firing.

F. Guffey

[Randy]

My M-1 Garand has a Navy NM 308 Barrel on it. Reason for the 308 barrel was the lack of 3006 brass on the base I worked on. I started with a 5 gallon bucket of M-60 machinegun brass. I dumped half of it in the tub ( wife claws came out on that one) added some very warm water and a LOT of Dawn dish washing soap. I wanted to make sure the brass was oil and dirt free. Remember this brass came out of the field. Then I got in trouble again. Just because I used the wife's cookie sheets to dry the brass in the oven ( 100 degree's ) she once again said gee whiz. Once the brass was clean and dry I started working on it I used a RCBS single stage sizing die and went to work. I lubed each piece and ran it through the die which also deprimed it. Now I know some will disagree with this. Some of that brass even though lubed did not want to go in the sizing die. Those are the one's that went into the recycle can. It lead me to believe that some M-60 machine gun chambers are a little to big in diameter. The good stuff went into the tumbler. I used a Grace case trimmer to get them all the same length. I set the trimmer using a case length gauge Then broke out the Dillon swagger and swaged all the primer pockets..I then chucked the primer pocket reamer in my electric drill, gently put the drill in the vice and made sure all the primer pockets were the same. Agreed this was a lot of work and time consuming, but it payed off. I still shoot this stuff. Have reloaded some of it on more than one occasion WITH NOT ONE CASE SEPERATION OR JAM. I use Winchester primers, 42 grains of 4065 and 168 grain sierra hpbt projectiles .

[p246]

My M-1 Garand has a Navy NM 308 Barrel on it. Reason for the 308 barrel was the lack of 3006 brass on the base I worked on. I started with a 5 gallon bucket of M-60 machinegun brass. I dumped half of it in the tub ( wife claws came out on that one) added some very warm water and a LOT of Dawn dish washing soap. I wanted to make sure the brass was oil and dirt free. Remember this brass came out of the field. Then I got in trouble again. Just because I used the wife's cookie sheets to dry the brass in the oven ( 100 degree's ) she once again said gee whiz. Once the brass was clean and dry I started working on it I used a RCBS single stage sizing die and went to work. I lubed each piece and ran it through the die which also deprimed it. Now I know some will disagree with this. Some of that brass even though lubed did not want to go in the sizing die. Those are the one's that went into the recycle can. It lead me to believe that some M-60 machine gun chambers are a little to big in diameter. The good stuff went into the tumbler. I used a Grace case trimmer to get them all the same length. I set the trimmer using a case length gauge Then broke out the Dillon swagger and swaged all the primer pockets..I then chucked the primer pocket reamer in my electric drill, gently put the drill in the vice and made sure all the primer pockets were the same. Agreed this was a lot of work and time consuming, but it payed off. I still shoot this stuff. Have reloaded some of it on more than one occasion WITH NOT ONE CASE SEPERATION OR JAM. I use Winchester primers, 42 grains of 4065 and 168 grain sierra hpbt projectiles .

I always make sure wife is gone when I borrow her stuff for reloading

[fguffey]

Now I know some will disagree with this. Some of that brass even though lubed did not want to go in the sizing die.

Who measures before and again after? The 308 Military chamber is generous after that there are methods and techniques. I use a no-name lube, for most work any case lube will do but there are exceptions. And I have forming dies. I have a 308 W forming die, the 308 W forming die forms 30/06 cases to 308 W with ease; after forming it is necessary to size the case to 308 W in a full length sizing die. Nothing works better than new cases when forming, after that comes once fired, the worst cases to form are cases that have been fired in ugly chambers. No one measures before and again after. If I am going to shorten the case from the shoulder to the case head I want to know by how much. If I am going to reduce the diameter of the case I want to know by how much. And I have to have a press that has the ability to overcome the case's ability to resist sizing.

And then there are the other factors, one is pressure. A case that is hammered with high pressure is more difficult to sized than a case fired with normal pressure.

I purchased a new Winchester Model 70 300 Winchester Mag rifle, it had the ugliest chamber I have ever seen. I have small base dies, I have forming dies for the 300 Win Mag, I have BAR RCBS 300 Win Mag dies etc. etc. I contacted Winchester, I wanted a chamber that matched my dies or a Winchester die that matched their chamber. Long story, they sent the rifle back in a new box. I dug it out after they returned it 15 +/- a few years ago, I loaded 100 rounds and then changed my mind about going to the range and gave the 100 rounds to my son, he has my other 300 Win Mag. It shoots one hole groups, it is not a Winchester.

F. Guffey

[fguffey]

I always make sure wife is gone when I borrow her stuff for reloading

I was building and repairing scales when she noticed one beam that (according to her) required cleaning. My fault, I was not listening, she took off with the beam and came back after cleaning it. I do not know what she used but the beam came back with out a number or mark, the beam was white. As always I called RCBS and told on her, not recommended, anyhow they would not send me stickers for replacement and if I sent it to them they had the option to repair and or replace and I did not want to exchange a 10-10 for an import.

The next gun show I attended I found two beams for $5.00 each and though I was ahead because shipping to RCBS would be at least $5.00.

F. Guffey

[Darreld Walton]

I used a LOT of LC brass that I watched go through an M60 at the range, while stationed at Malmstrom AFB back in the early 70's. Reamed the primer pockets, and trimmed with a Wilson trimmer, sized it with a set of RCBS small base dies so I could use the stuff in my early Browning BLR. Don't recall that I ever had a single case failure of any sort with that brass.

[bigedp51]

The machine gun chamber can be .002 to .004 larger in diameter than a SAAMI chamber. When I buy once fired 7.62 brass I size it once in a standard die full length .308 die and the check it with a JP Enterprises 308 / 7.62x51 Case Gauge

"7.62 NATO/.308 Win. This gauge is cut with a 7.62 NATO chamber finishing reamer, and will give a reliable check of ammunition used in rifles chambered for either 7.62 NATO or most rifles chambered in .308 Winchester SAAMI"

If it doesn't fit in the gauge meaning case diameter the case is then sized in a small base die.

The last batch I bought I sized them all twice using a standard die followed by the small base die. Your dealing with brass spring back and a SAAMI chamber or a military chamber .002 larger in diameter. Meaning the choice of die will depend on chamber diameter.

[fguffey]

[QUOTE=bigedp51;480328]The machine gun chamber can be .002 to .004 larger in diameter than a SAAMI chamber. When I buy once fired 7.62 brass I size it once in a standard die full length .308 die and the check it with a JP Enterprises 308 / 7.62x51 Case Gauge

I am not convinced another tool is necessary, I make chamber gages; nothing fancy, I also use take off barrels. Most chamber gages are rip-offs of the Wilson case gage; most chamber gages do not use case head protrusion. And then there is before a reloaders starts sizing; reloaders should start by measuring the case first.

F. Guffey

[bigedp51]

It isn't the cartridge headspace length or base to shoulder measurement thats the problem. Military Lake City 7.62 brass is thicker and harder than comertial .308 cases and is harder to reduce in diameter when fired in a machine gun chamber that is .003 to ,004 larger in diameter.

Below I use JP Enterprise 5.56 and 7.62 case gauges because they also check case diameter for my final "plop" test in checking the cases. A Hornady cartridge case headspace gauge is used to check a fired case and then set the resizing die up for .003 to .004 shoulder bump. Wilson and Dillon case gauges do not check case diameter and fired machine gun brass will not drop into these type gauges.

Machine gun 7.62 brass is average quality and has more than normal case neck thickness variations compared to Remchester brass. Meaning LC brass would be OK for blasting ammo but would require a lot more sorting and prep work to bring it up to speed for anything else.

JP Enterprises 308 / 7.62x51 Case Gauge
7.62 NATO/.308 Win. This gauge is cut with a 7.62 NATO chamber finishing reamer, and will give a reliable check of ammunition used in rifles chambered for either 7.62 NATO or most rifles chambered in .308 Winchester SAAMI.



Below is the best once fired brass you can get, "IF" you can find it in stock.

.308/7.62 - LC Long Range - Cleaned - 500 Pieces

http://brassbombers.com/308-762-LC-Long-Range-Cleaned-500-Pieces-7LR-C0050.htm

Once Fired .308/7.62 LC Long Range

These are once fired Lake City Long Range .308/7.62 NATO Military brass casings. These casings have been cleaned only. No other processing or loading has been done. These casings are bolt fired and only consist of Lake City Long Range headstamps.

P.S. F.Guffey we do not need anymore "War and Peace" length postings about measuring cases from base to shoulder that no one gives a rats ass about. Go back to Accurate Shooter and bore them to death.

[fguffey]

Ed. Not true, all of this has to do with the skill lever of the reloader. If a reloader can not use a Wilson case gage to measure case diameter by all means purchased another tool; that would be the only one your a peddling. As I have said before, there is a lot about sizing a case the reloader does not understand. From the beginning I though reloaders/smiths and machinist could make a tool in less time than it takes to order one, I believe they spend more time trying to convince me they can't than it would take if they spent more time thinking about it.

Yes I remind reloaders I make datums, I purchase datums and on occasions I collect datums. Then there is the rational, I said I was at a gun show looking through boxes of junk on a dealers table; I said "DATUMAS!": The dealer said he did not have any datums, the reloader in front of me ask "WHERE?" Another reloader said he did not see any datums and another ask me what a datum looked like. And you are using a gage to flop a case into?

F. Guffey

[fguffey]

Reloaders are under the impression they can move a shoulder on a case, they even bundle it with the word bump, in all honesty I said I can not move the shoulder of a case back with a die that has case body support. And I ask: "How do you do that?". Reloaders have mastered the .002" bump? And that is it, there is nothing less and there is nothing more. I size cases for short chamber, I size cases for long chambers. For short chambers I form/sizes cases that are .012" shorter than a minimum length case from the shoulder to the case head. For long chambers I have added .016" length to the case between the shoulder of the case to the case head. I know that is not cool because I can not bump the shoulder back and I can not find a reloader that can explain how they do it; they make claims.

F. Guffey

[bigedp51]

If any of the sane reloaders here haven't noticed F.Guffey is the only person in the world who knows how to resize a cartridge case.

There are 7,432,663,275 people on this planet and only F. Guffey knows how to resize a case................unbelievable!

I think F.Guffey "bumped" his head too many times and is suffering cognitive problems.

[fguffey]

There are 7,432,663,275 people on this planet and only F. Guffey knows how to resize a case................unbelievable!

.

Unbelievable? I am told by reloaders they bump the shoulder on the case back and I ask; "HOW?" "How do you do that?" I am not asking them to demonstrate to me how silly they can get. I have even asked them If it is just a simple matter of not knowing. Not knowing is OK; A smith built a few magnificent rifles, he went to the range to fire form cases. He had 5 case head separations out of the first 10 cases he fired. I suggested he call me the next time, I told him I could have determined that could happen before he left his shop; I also told him I could have met him at the range and fixed the problem at the range long enough for fire forming. Anyhow, he was told all you 'gotta-do' is move the shoulder forward when you do this and that and I explained to him that is impossible, but first a reloader/smith must understand what happens when the trigger strikes the primer.

I explained to him I form first then fire.

F. Guffey

[bigedp51]

Anyone have experience with fired LC 7.62 brass? I have heard this is usually out of MG and is pain to size, needs trimming and sometimes the base is expanded a lot. Correct?

The biggest problem with machine gun brass is brass spring back after sizing. Meaning these cases were fired formed in a larger diameter chamber and might need to be sized with a small base die. "BUT" remember a standard .308 resizing die is already at least .002 smaller in diameter than the machine gun chamber. So just pausing at the top of the ram stroke for a few seconds helps prevent brass spring back and a small base die may not be needed.

So yes this MG brass can be harder to size down because it expanded more in the MG chamber. And the base of the 7.62 case is thicker and harder than commercial .308 cases, and thus harder to size.

Most machine guns have quick change barrels and the case head separations shown earlier can be caused by the generous chamber dimensions.

I use a RCBS case mastering gauge to inspect cases, that allows me to check case wall thickness and look for case thinning and stretching in the base web area.

[bigedp51]

Unbelievable? I am told by reloaders they bump the shoulder on the case back and I ask; "HOW?" "How do you do that?" I am not asking them to demonstrate to me how silly they can get. I have even asked them If it is just a simple matter of not knowing. Not knowing is OK; A smith built a few magnificent rifles, he went to the range to fire form cases. He had 5 case head separations out of the first 10 cases he fired. I suggested he call me the next time, I told him I could have determined that could happen before he left his shop; I also told him I could have met him at the range and fixed the problem at the range long enough for fire forming. Anyhow, he was told all you 'gotta-do' is move the shoulder forward when you do this and that and I explained to him that is impossible, but first a reloader/smith must understand what happens when the trigger strikes the primer.

I explained to him I form first then fire.

F. Guffey

What the hell does this have to do with sizing machine gun brass, all you posts all over the Internet are the same thing, only F.Guffey knows how to resize a case..............Unbelievable.

Go back to http://forum.accurateshooter.com/ and look at all the jokes and comments made about your postings by competitive shooters.

You trash every posting you are in with your never ending garbage with your datums, magic feeler gauges and your imaginary Superman ability to jump tall reloading presses in a single bound.

Unbelievable!