Shoulder set back.

[nf1e]

In a recent discussion of the use of an RCBS precision mic for determining shoulder setback when resizing cases the question of what does one do once steel on steel contact is made between your shell holder and the bottom of the sizing die and you would like to have more set back.

This was my response.

The RCBS Precision Mic has been a very useful tool in my workshop. I often use a know good headspace gauge to confirm readings. Being from the " old school" I still believe in using the correct tool for each purpose.

If you are getting to the steel and steel contact and are looking for more setback, Redding makes shell holders of varying depths for that purpose. Works great for my precision ammo when stock shell holders don't get the job done without modification.

[togor]

My poor-man's solution to the problem:

[fguffey]

The feeler gage: For years and years I have sized cases for short chambers; Thousands of reloaders have laughed it off because they could not understand but I used the feeler gage before Skip had shims and Redding had competition shell holders. For me Skips shims and Redding competition shell holders has never bee necessary.

If the reloaders is wanting to reduce the length of the case from the shoulder/datum to the case head the Redding competition shell holders are useless; but if the reloader wants to reduce the length of the case between the shoulder/datum to the case head he must use feeler gages between the deck of the shell holder and case head.

Other benefits, the feeler gage increases tha ability of the press to overcome the case's ability to resist sizing and if a reloader wanders if he needs a small base die he can sue the feeler gage.

More times than not the reloader has no clue if the case has been sized, they pull the handle, the ram does up and then they change the direction of the ram (like little Jack Horner setting in the corner checking his pie) the reloader removes the case after sizing only to find the case will not chamber. The reloader should be able to determine if the case was sized, A reloader with a mechanical aptitude should be able to determine if the case was sized before lowering the ram; with a feeler gage! Because; if the case was not sized the die does not make it to the top of the shell holder.

If a reloader had the ability to determine if the case has been sized before lowering the ram he could remove the die with the case protruding from the bottom, it is possible; it is not my job to convince reloaders they can do it. Anyhow, if the reloaders removes the die with the case from the press before lowering the ram he should have no problem measuring the case head protrusion from the die. Why? The deck height of the shell holder is .125", if the case head protrudes from the die .125" the case had been full length sized to minimum length.

And then there is the old verifying test. I use a head space gage, shell holder and die and we do not want to forget the 'feeler gage'.

F. Guffey

[fguffey]

If you are getting to the steel and steel contact and are looking for more setback, Redding makes shell holders of varying depths for that purpose. Works great for my precision ammo when stock shell holders don't get the job done without modification

.

The old shoulder set back; I say it is impossible to set/move the shoulder back with a die that has full case body support and then you make a calim the Redding shell holders move the shoulder back when it is just the opposite. The Redding competition shell holders prevent the reloader from shortning the cas3e between the shoulder and case head.

But you have nothing to worry about, I doubt there is a reloaders on this forum that understood what you were caliming.

Again, I size/form cases for short chambers, the only way reloaders on the internet could do that was to grind the top of the shell holder or bottom of the die. They claimed the answer was 'no biggy', just frind away. I have recommended RCBS shell holders because they fit like a hand me down shrt, they fit where they touch. Most RCBS shell holdrs have at least .010: clearance between the deck of the shell holder and case head, now find me a reloader that has ever measured.

What does that mean? It means I can raise the case head off of the deck of the shell holder .010" when forming and or sizing cases for short chambers.

And then there are other seell holders like Herter, Herter shell holders have a different type of advantage, Herter shell holders fit, it would take me all day long to expalin the advantage of a shell holder that fits and then there is the reason Herter made them that way.

F. Guffey

[fguffey]

Works great for my precision ammo when stock shell holders don't get the job done without modification.

When 'stock' shell holders do not get 'it' done do like I did before Redding made competition shell holders: I adjusted the die off the shell holder with precision. I placed a feeler gage between the top pf the shell holder and bottom of the die. There are a few things that do on that seem to complicate it for reloaders. I have one rifle with a 30/06 chamber that is .002" longer than a field reject length chamber. When adjusting/forming cases for that chamber I adjust the die .014" off the shell holder and I use 280 Remington cases because the 280 Remington case is longer from the shoulder to the case head .051"; and I ask, how can a reloader miss when he has .051" to play with.

F. Guffey

[nf1e]

When in doubt, toss a frag and be done with it.

[fguffey]

When in doubt, toss a frag and be done with it.

Why? You started typing in lofty terms about something you misunderstood and had no experience with. The Redding Competition shell holders increase the length of the case from the datum to the case head, they do not allow the reloaders to shorten the length of the case from the datum to the case head. The reloaders has 5 options when using the Redding shell holders.

Without the Redding Competition shell holders I have 25 options from minimum length to infinity or a more practice .020" longer than a minimum length/full length sized case. AND! I have the option of sizing cases for short chambers, when using the RCBS shell holders I have 10 options.

And I am lucky, my cases do not have head space, my chamber has a head space dimension from the datum to the bolt face, I off set the length of the chamber with the length of the case from the datum/shoulder to the case head.

You do not have to thank me for my efforts but those that were going to take you seriously got a lesson when taking advise on the Internet. There are a lot of lonely reloaders on reloading forums that take themselves too seriously; they got a poor start and never caught up.

F. Guffey

[nf1e]

Why? You started typing in lofty terms about something you misunderstood and had no experience with. The Redding Competition shell holders increase the length of the case from the datum to the case head, they do not allow the reloaders to shorten the length of the case from the datum to the case head. The reloaders has 5 options when using the Redding shell holders.

Without the Redding Competition shell holders I have 25 options from minimum length to infinity or a more practice .020" longer than a minimum length/full length sized case. AND! I have the option of sizing cases for short chambers, when using the RCBS shell holders I have 10 options.

And I am lucky, my cases do not have head space, my chamber has a head space dimension from the datum to the bolt face, I off set the length of the chamber with the length of the case from the datum/shoulder to the case head.

You do not have to thank me for my efforts but those that were going to take you seriously got a lesson when taking advise on the Internet. There are a lot of lonely reloaders on reloading forums that take themselves too seriously; they got a poor start and never caught up.

F. Guffey

Yes indeed, one of us has no idea what he is talking about, and my friend, that would not be me.
A tiny bit of study, on one's part, would show exactly my point for using these shell holders to do exactly what I have described.
Your negative interpretation is of no benefit to the thread. I would suggest you might take your head out of dark places and into the light.
This thread was started as informational and one possible option only and certainly not as a topic for a google type debate.

[fguffey]

In a recent discussion of the use of an RCBS precision mic for determining shoulder setback when resizing cases the question of what does one do once steel on steel contact is made between your shell holder and the bottom of the sizing die and you would like to have more set back.

I can not type any slower; the Redding Competition shell holders do not move the shoulder when shorten the case between the shoulder and case head, Reloaders in the old days would grind the top of the shell holder and or bottom of the die when the case had more resistance to sizing than the press would produce. You will not believe what they called me when I informed them grinding the shell holder and or die was a bad habit. they did not believe me when I informed them I had a grinder that would grind shell holders and or the bottom of dies.

When shortening the distance between the shoulder and case head part of the shoulder becomes part of the neck and part of the case body becomes part of the shoulder. O do not expect a reloader to be able to keep up; the shoulder does not move, it is impossible to move the shoulder on a case on a case with a die that has bull body support.

And the best a reloaders can say is yes I can because we all know what the other means. I can not believe you accept that shabby answer.

F. Guffey

[nf1e]

In practice, I have found that after annealing to a point in the area from 3/8" below the shoulder to the case mouth, that it is indeed quite easy to move the brass around to conform to desired positions.. Nothing is written in stone, as you know, and that would most certainly include individual's description of the process they are using and it's effect on casing makeup and physical measurements. After all, it is a hobby. One that I have enjoyed immensely since the 1960s and hope to for another bunch of years.
We are only indicating a few thousandths movement of material so it really is not a big deal. With 5 to 10k of .308 cases prepped and fired annually on my range, we have managed to make it work for us. Not asking for you approval Sir, just stating my observations and sharing with those that might be a little more involved than the average generic handloader.



Looking carefully at the brass in my cooling pan, one will notice that the brass in annealed farther down the case body than standard military cases. Works for me.

[PWC]

Anyhow, if the reloaders removes the die with the case from the press before lowering the ram

Guffy - The case slides into the shell holder from the side. With the ram raised and the case in the die, how do you unscrew the die to remove from the press without backing the case out of the die?

[Parashooter]

. . . The case slides into the shell holder from the side. With the ram raised and the case in the die, how do you unscrew the die to remove from the press without backing the case out of the die?

Simple: lower the ram slightly (just enough to ease friction between case head and shellholder), rotate the shellholder so the slot for the case is opposite the slot in the ram for the shellholder, slide out the shellholder. This works for most common single-station presses, perhaps not all designs.

[PWC]

Since wr are dealing in thousanths, even this movement could cause inaccuracy.

[nf1e]

Who's on first?

[PWC]

maybe even better, when rhe case is inserted, curn the shell holder before sizing....