455 Webley MkVI reloading

[rayg]

Forgot to post the target here it is.
Here are the six shots I fired from the bench with a hand support at 14 yds. Don't know why the two high ones but I did find in checking some of my 255 bullets afterward that some bullets were harder then others. I had made those bullets years ago and must have gotten some mixed up. (I haven't shot my old original 1884 dated 1873 Colt for years), or else I pulled the shots as the trigger pull on my Welbey is Terrible, extremely heavy and crippy. Almost takes two fingers. Anyway even the two high ones grouped well.

Next time I load I will check the hardness of each bullet. I read you can also drill out a cavity in the base of the 255 gr bullets to help expansion but doubt I need to do that the way it's shooting now.

[rayg]

Well I had some 45 acp "rimmed" cases that I had my friend cut the rims down to .040 thickness so they would work in the 455 uncut Webley. I tried them and they turn without draging. I'll load them up w/ 4 grs of Unique powder and will try them at the range next week, Ray

[rayg]

Went to the range last week and tried the converted 45acp rimmed cases out at 15yrds. The shots were scattered with flyers on the target and not grouping well and there was some un-burnt power in the barrel and cylinder. This told me the powder was not burning proper probably because of the longer cases. So I tilted the gun up before each shot to make sure the powder was against the primer and that did it. It shot nice groups from then on.

[GillaFunk]

I loaded up some .45acp brass with Missouri bullet co. 255g .452 dia SWC, using 45 Colt dies and Bullseye in various charges to get the accuracy and POA Id like. I dont recall the charge weights off hand, but the most accurate was ~660fps.

I got nothing close to what RayG has, accuracy wise. Still not happy with performance, and I may just locate some .45 Colt brass and go from there.

The fun continues.

[rayg]

Keep working at it. Remember you have to either cut the
45 Colt LC or rimmed acp cases down quite a bit, or you have to tilt the gun up each time to move the powder against the primer to get better burn and accuracy, Ray

[wiley]

Remington makes a knurled and swaged lead bullet with a .454" diameter. Also the base is slightly cupped. You might try these for a better seal. I got mine at Midway

[GillaFunk]

Finally found a load I can work with, and am happy to report:

standard non-modified 45ACP brass, normally FL sized, primed CCI LP, fired using moon clips.
Magtech Bullets 45 Colt (Long Colt) (454 Diameter) 250 Grain Lead Flat Nose $19.79/100
Bullseye 4.4g
COAL 1.290",
crimped with Lee carbide factory 45ACP crimp
7 yards


FPS unknown (sorry, no chrono on hand)

Hole in the 10ring was my fault. Not sure about the flyer, probably me as well.
This is the same load (less the projectile) I used from my last test, that resulted in

However,
Same load data, just 3.8g Bullseye


Needless to say, pretty god dammed good for a 96 year old gun!

Ray, I appreciate your input. Your post basically got me started in loading for this monster.

[rayg]

Glad it worked out GF, nice group. Always great when your loads work out, Ray

[rayg]

I haven't shot my Webley for awhile but I mentioned to my friend who had machined/thinned down the rims from .080 to .040 of the 45 acp rimmed cases so they would turn in the cylinder, that the cases are too long. And it's necessary to tilt the gun up each shot so the powder positions back by the primer otherwise the powder doesn't burn completey which results in poor accuracy and really is not a good thing to do anyway. So he said to bring the cases over and he'll cut the length down on them.
Here's the result. The cases now measure .790 instead of .940.
I loaded 30 of them up with some .452, 45 cal. semi wad cutter, .230 gr cast bullets I had with 4.5 grs of Unique powder. A bit more powder then the 4.0 grs I used in the heaver 255gr LC bullets I used before. I can't wait to try them out but it's raining here today so I'll just have to wait a bit.
Here's the cases for comparison. Ray

[Parashooter]

Be careful, there. With the shortened cases and bullets perhaps seated deeper than is normal for the .455, you've seriously reduced the initial effective case volume. This can really raise pressure, especially with the charge increase you report. Here's a QuickLOAD simulation to consider -

Cartridge : .455 MK II
Bullet : .452, 234, RCBS FN GC 45-250-FN
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 1.160 inch or 29.46 mm
Barrel Length : 5.0 inch or 127.0 mm
Powder : Alliant UNIQUE

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 3.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms

-03.0 71 3.88 676 237 10723 1670 83.2 0.933
+00.0 73 4.00 694 251 11423 1741 84.6 0.907 ! Near Maximum !
+03.0 75 4.12 713 264 12156 1812 85.8 0.881 ! Near Maximum !
+06.0 77 4.24 731 278 12923 1882 87.0 0.856 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+09.0 79 4.36 749 292 13724 1951 88.2 0.832 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+12.0 81 4.48 768 306 14560 2020 89.2 0.808 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+15.0 84 4.60 785 321 15433 2087 90.3 0.786 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

If your load generates the 14,560 psi estimated here for 4.48gr., it's pushing the envelope for the old .455, rated for just 13,053 psi working maximum (PMAX) by the CIP. See http://www.cip-bobp.org/homologation...e87.pdf#page=1

[rayg]

Well never one to ignore good advice, I pulled the bullets and reduced the load to 4.0 grs and seated the bullet a bit further out. The cut down cases are the same size/length as the original 455 cases and the bullets are 200 gr, not .230 gr that I mistakenly said, sorry but they sure are peek squeak loads now.. I checked the books for the standard unique loads for the regular 45acp reloads loads that are used with the clips in the shaved cylinder Webleys by some and they start at 5.0 grs up to 7.0 plus and I don't know what the pressure the GI 45 acp rds. has. I do remember reading of some damge caused by the regular 45acp ammo. Ray

[Parashooter]

. . . I don't know what the pressure the GI 45 acp rds. has. I do remember reading of some damge caused by the regular 45acp ammo. Ray

CIP Pmax for .45 ACP is 18,855 psi. - quite a bit higher than that for the .455. See detail at http://www.cip-bobp.org/homologation...-en-page76.pdf . SAAMI .45 ACP MAP (piezo) is 21,000 psi - which shows how much variation there is in the measurement methods of the different standards organizations. Apples and oranges.

[rayg]

Well the rain stopped and got a chance to get to the range before it started again and here's the result. Fired 10 rds at 15yrds with my Hand holding the revolver while resting on a sand bag. Again they are not very powerful loads as my point of aim was on the center of the top bulls eye but impact was on the lower target. That's about 6-7 inches below point of aim and at only 15yrds. Could be the 200 gr. bullets added to the low impact as I think it is said lighter bullets shoot lower but for that short distance I wouldn't think it would make that much difference. I will try the 255gr LC bullets next, Ray

[GillaFunk]

Have you tried the Magtech Bullets 45 Colt (Long Colt) (454 Diameter) 250 Grain Lead Flat Nose from midway?