.30-06 info

[milboltnut]

There is the chamber shoulder and there is the case shoulder. And I have found it impossible to move a shoulder back, I cannot move the shoulder of a case back and I cannot bump it back.

For years reloaders have talked about the dreaded donut and then they claim they "move the shoulder back", if they could move the shoulder back, they could eliminate the dreaded donut.

F. Guffey

F. Guffey

If you can not move the shoulder back then why does a gauge tell me I am moving it back ?

[lyman]

that's what I did...but am getting caught up in .001 to .002 bump, but a guy told me that the 06 has issues with the shoulder verses the improved shoulder.

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So do I.

ANd yeah you continue to make me dizzy and your mod says you do to.

not sure on this,

The Mod, (of the forum you are a member off) said you will get used to it,



or not

[milboltnut]

if I do get used to it, I won't be dizzy, if I don't then I won't be. Is that better ?

[milboltnut]

There is the chamber shoulder and there is the case shoulder. And I have found it impossible to move a shoulder back, I cannot move the shoulder of a case back and I cannot bump it back.

For years reloaders have talked about the dreaded donut and then they claim they "move the shoulder back", if they could move the shoulder back, they could eliminate the dreaded donut.



F. Guffey

According to you, you can't bump a shoulder, so how would you know a donut would be eliminated if they could bump a shoulder back? Am I making you dizzy ?

[lyman]

if I do get used to it, I won't be dizzy, if I don't then I won't be. Is that better ?

[fguffey]

If you cannot move the shoulder back then why does a gauge tell me I am moving it back?

Reloaders assume they are moving the shoulder back when they are sizing a case and then someone that has never put any thought into what was happing to the case when sizing told them they were moving the shoulder back.

Again, I form 30/06 cases to 8mm57 cases. There is .127" difference in the length of an 8mm57 case and a 30/06 case. It means nothing to those that never put any thought into it, but I did not move the shoulder back .127". The shoulder I formed on the 8mm57 is not the same shoulder I started with on the 30/06 case. No one has ever asked, "If the shoulder does not move back. where does it go? The 30/06 neck becomes part of the 8mm57 shoulder and part of the 30/06 shoulder becomes part 8mm57 case body. SO, when forming and or sizing the shoulder of the case moves forward and if the case last a long time all of that brass moving forward must be trimmed.

I took two 8x06 rifles to the rang, I fired 8mm57 ammo in both of the rifles. A reminder, there is .127" difference in length between the 8mm57 round and the 30/06 round between the datum to the case and head. After firing I found the shoulder of the 8mm57 had become part of the case body and the neck almost disappeared. I could ask, what does that mean?

F. Guffey

[milboltnut]

Reloaders assume they are moving the shoulder back when they are sizing a case and then someone that has never put any thought into what was happing to the case when sizing told them they were moving the shoulder back.

Again, I form 30/06 cases to 8mm57 cases. There is .127" difference in the length of an 8mm57 case and a 30/06 case. It means nothing to those that never put any thought into it, but I did not move the shoulder back .127". The shoulder I formed on the 8mm57 is not the same shoulder I started with on the 30/06 case. No one has ever asked, "If the shoulder does not move back. where does it go? The 30/06 neck becomes part of the 8mm57 shoulder and part of the 30/06 shoulder becomes part 8mm57 case body. SO, when forming and or sizing the shoulder of the case moves forward and if the case last a long time all of that brass moving forward must be trimmed.

I took two 8x06 rifles to the rang, I fired 8mm57 ammo in both of the rifles. A reminder, there is .127" difference in length between the 8mm57 round and the 30/06 round between the datum to the case and head. After firing I found the shoulder of the 8mm57 had become part of the case body and the neck almost disappeared. I could ask, what does that mean?

F. Guffey

I said some thing.... Again.....a gauge, told me that I am moving the shoulder back, not someone.

I think I rather not stay in this rabbit hole I think you are really are missing it but that's ok. When you size an 06 to an 8mm, you still have to size the new case to your chamber after you fire form it. Unless after you fire form it, you only neck size and never have to move the shoulder back to chamber it??? Buy a case gauge and see the body portion is loose, and it only measures the shoulder to head and the length of the case. I hope that helps.

[fguffey]

I said some thing.... Again.....a gauge, told me that I am moving the shoulder back, not someone.

I understand, you insist you can move the shoulder back, I say it is impossible to move the shoulder back. You cannot tell me how you are able to move the shoulder back. The shoulder you finish with is not the same shoulder you started with.

gauge, told me

I make gages, when measuring the length of a case from the datum to the case head I use a datum of .375" with a length/height gage. I have Wilson case gages with a straight edge and a feeler gage.

Back to donuts, A reloader cannot form donuts by moving the shoulder back meaning a reloader does not know how donuts are formed.

I took two 8x06 rifles to the rang, I fired 8mm57 ammo in both of the rifles. A reminder, there is .127" difference in length between the 8mm57 round and the 30/06 round between the datum to the case and head. After firing I found the shoulder of the 8mm57 had become part of the case body and the neck almost disappeared. I could ask, what does that mean?

Forgive, few reloaders can say "I do not know" most just get snarky, it takes little to no effort to get someone to agree with you.

[milboltnut]

Guffey

I understand, you insist you can move the shoulder back, I say it is impossible to move the shoulder back. You cannot tell me how you are able to move the shoulder back. The shoulder you finish with is not the same shoulder you started with.

You can't prove it that it can't, I can prove it with a gauge. You can't prove your heart beats unless you can hear it or feel it beat. You need your ear, to hear it beat. You need assistance from an apparatus to aid you to tell it is active. Yeah it's a simple concept and sorry I have to tell you this that you are basing your impossibility on, well nothing.

After firing I found the shoulder of the 8mm57 had become part of the case body and the neck almost disappeared. I could ask, what does that mean?

That means absolutely nothing. Yeah and.... ?

The shoulder you finish with is not the same shoulder you started with.

And.... that's like saying what in the world does that have to do with a case shoulder that needs to chamber ? Die companies cut dies to maximum headpspace. I had a die that was short, and Lee cut the base to maximum HS. Follow ? and HS is base to datum, the datum is somewhere in the middle of the shoulder........And what does a FL sizing die do ?

And this is the end of this debate

[milboltnut]

Reloaders assume they are moving the shoulder back when they are sizing a case and then someone that has never put any thought into what was happing to the case when sizing told them they were moving the shoulder back.

Again, I form 30/06 cases to 8mm57 cases. There is .127" difference in the length of an 8mm57 case and a 30/06 case. It means nothing to those that never put any thought into it, but I did not move the shoulder back .127". The shoulder I formed on the 8mm57 is not the same shoulder I started with on the 30/06 case. No one has ever asked, "If the shoulder does not move back. where does it go? The 30/06 neck becomes part of the 8mm57 shoulder and part of the 30/06 shoulder becomes part 8mm57 case body. SO, when forming and or sizing the shoulder of the case moves forward and if the case last a long time all of that brass moving forward must be trimmed.

I took two 8x06 rifles to the rang, I fired 8mm57 ammo in both of the rifles. A reminder, there is .127" difference in length between the 8mm57 round and the 30/06 round between the datum to the case and head. After firing I found the shoulder of the 8mm57 had become part of the case body and the neck almost disappeared. I could ask, what does that mean?

F. Guffey

The case on the left is maximum HS... the case on the right is a new factory case. You don't have to ask you can see where the shoulders go.... when sized,It goes BACK...... and basically flows forward which is the old adage, "for every action there's a reaction"..... well the forward movement is the "action"
IMG-0944.jpg In reality the shoulder becomes part of the neck.

[fguffey]

I think it would be best that whatever way you get it done, is fine by me, but don't expect me to agree with you every time and doesn't mean you are always right. So in the future I suggest you keep your words short, ok ? If you don't mind.

Ralph

I thought you felt offended, so I asked you to "forgive" twice and then you went to casting a chamber, at that time I said, "thank you". I really thought you had something going for you. This is not all about you.

The case on the left is maximum HS... the case on the right is a new factory case. You don't have to ask you can see where the shoulders go.... when sized,It goes BACK...... and basically flows forward which is the old adage, "for every action there's a reaction"..... well the forward movement is the "action"

The case does not have headspace. The datum is round because that is the only way a reloader/machinist can determine how far the datum is form the case head. And then there is the "because", the shoulder has a taper, it has an apex like a traffic cone. I know, I am wasting your time, please forgive.

F. Guffey

[fguffey]

The case does not have headspace.

You are making this stuff up again. The shoulder of the case cannot move back when sized with a die that has full case body support. A die that does not have case body support is a seating die. A die manufacturer/designer worked all of this out before there was a reloading forum. They suggested crimping the neck while seating a bullet is a bad habit. Dillon started making dies, they made a die for seating the bullet and a die for crimping.

F. Guffey

[milboltnut]

yes your are wasting my time, and countless others who read your posts. You are extremely confused when it comes to handloading 101.

The case does not have headspace

It does, and I said you size the case to the proper headspace to the chamber and you are missing the simple concept here.. I'm wondering why trimming is needed and where the brass comes from? Hmmmm. The neck doesn't thin out, so where does it come from? Hmmmm. Couldn't imagine.I don't have to trim, and only Partial FL size. Nothing new here. Making stuff up ?? The pic I posted is worth a thousand words.

[lyman]

I think it is best to end this one,

Mr Guffey, please polish up your discourse, you may get better traction with some of us who reload

[lyman]

re opened by request,


please play nice,

if not, i'll start infracting,,,