Annealing question

[p246]

It's interesting that you can get so many reloads without cracking necks. The necks have been cracking on my .303 PPU cases after just 3 or 4 reload cycles. That's why I'm tempted to anneal the necks every time. It only takes a few seconds to do so its no big deal unless annealing that often is causing the brass to soften excessively and affecting neck tension. I also use a Lee Loader with the recommended starting powder charge of BLC(2) so I'm not anywhere close to maximum charge and can still shoot accurately at 100 yards.

Merc

I think a lot of it has to do with the Enfield your loading for and the size of the chamber. One of my brass eaters is a 1944 Ishsy wire wrap. I suspect it's a post independence rebuild. Since its wire wrapped I've never taken the wood off to confirm this. The bore was imaculate and when slugged was like new. This was a Sarco 90s import per the man I bought it from. When it started eating Privi brass I found the case mouths were blowing out 5 to 6 thousands more than my other shooters, both No1 Mark III * and No 4 mark 1 and 1*s. A chamber cast confirmed what I was seeing. The case body is only slightly bigger 1 thousands than both my Lithgow Shooters I was comparing it to. The bullets neck is 5 thousands bigger than both Lithgows. A bore scope of the throat shows it to be long but in good shape.

So this rifle when the brass is annealed and neck sized only will start cracking necks at around the 6th reload. Basically because the neck is being so over worked. I'm using pulled surplus bullets and driving them at 2400, so the load is not tame but not super hot. Amazeinly the rifle is my best No1 mark Iii* shooter. At our local match it is the only No1 I've scored in the 170s with (out of 200 possible).

I've been told by two different smiths two different explanations. One...reamer out of spec as India struggled some with rifle production after the Brits left. Two...finish reamer out of spec....don't know who is right.

All my other Enfields( except for a 1915 Lithgow brass eater) I load 10 times (anneal/neck size) then I pitch them. Based on some of the other posts I might try and bump them up a couple more reloads.

I do have a matching Ishhy Grenade cup. With blanks, an aluminum can cut out gas check and a tennis ball this thing makes people laugh.

[JOHN COOK]

I like the suggestion by Sportsdad. I tried using a 12 MM deep socket and and hand drill. Placed the (30:06) cases in a bowl to the left and torch in center, water to the right, lights off in shop place a a round in the socket (loose fit) heat to a light cherry red, tip socket and it falls in the water. No burnt fingers.

Works for me.

john

[Merc]

I think a lot of it has to do with the Enfield your loading for and the size of the chamber. One of my brass eaters is a 1944 Ishsy wire wrap. I suspect it's a post independence rebuild. Since its wire wrapped I've never taken the wood off to confirm this. The bore was imaculate and when slugged was like new. This was a Sarco 90s import per the man I bought it from. When it started eating Privi brass I found the case mouths were blowing out 5 to 6 thousands more than my other shooters, both No1 Mark III * and No 4 mark 1 and 1*s. A chamber cast confirmed what I was seeing. The case body is only slightly bigger 1 thousands than both my Lithgow Shooters I was comparing it to. The bullets neck is 5 thousands bigger than both Lithgows. A bore scope of the throat shows it to be long but in good shape.

So this rifle when the brass is annealed and neck sized only will start cracking necks at around the 6th reload. Basically because the neck is being so over worked. I'm using pulled surplus bullets and driving them at 2400, so the load is not tame but not super hot. Amazeinly the rifle is my best No1 mark Iii* shooter. At our local match it is the only No1 I've scored in the 170s with (out of 200 possible).

I've been told by two different smiths two different explanations. One...reamer out of spec as India struggled some with rifle production after the Brits left. Two...finish reamer out of spec....don't know who is right.

All my other Enfields( except for a 1915 Lithgow brass eater) I load 10 times (anneal/neck size) then I pitch them. Based on some of the other posts I might try and bump them up a couple more reloads.

I do have a matching Ishhy Grenade cup. With blanks, an aluminum can cut out gas check and a tennis ball this thing makes people laugh.

Yeah, I've concluded that an overly generous 1944 No. 4 Mk 1* chamber is the cause of split necks. It's the only rifle I shoot that collects soot around the necks of the fired cases. I'll continue to anneal the cases and watch for splits and just toss them into the recycling cans at the range if/when they occur without getting too excited about it. I was getting 3-4 reloads without annealing, maybe I can double that number now that I'm annealing the cases. I'm happy either way.

The rifle has about .250" loss of rifling in the throat so it has some wear but still shoots flat based 150 gr. soft points in good groups with a mild load of ball powder at 100 yards. I looked closely at the fired .303 cases and compared them to the fired .30-06 cases from a minty M1917 and equally minty 03-A3 (that were probably used for target practice) and see stretch marks around the heads and necks of the .303 cases but nothing on the .30-06 cases. Of course, the 1944 No. 4 was in active WW2 service for probably more than a year so whatever wear it has was earned. I checked out a 1943 No. 4 Mark 1* for a friend recently and it had .380" loss of rifling which is probably consistent for a rifle with two years service.

Merc

[Merc]

I like the suggestion by Sportsdad. I tried using a 12 MM deep socket and and hand drill. Placed the (30:06) cases in a bowl to the left and torch in center, water to the right, lights off in shop place a a round in the socket (loose fit) heat to a light cherry red, tip socket and it falls in the water. No burnt fingers.

Works for me.

john

Interesting. Thanks for the suggestion.

Merc

[p246]

Interesting. Thanks for the suggestion.

Merc

If you are going to try this I'd suggest at least buying one bottle of 450 degree templac. Mark the base with it at least a 1/16th inch up, if the templac turn color before water submersion pitch the brass it is now unsafe to shoot. I can promise you on short cases like .223 if you heat the shoulder to cherry red no matter what shade of color the base will hit the 450 or higher mark if done in open air then water submerged. You might be able to get away with it on longer cases, but why risk it when one can confirm results with templac. Once you get the hang of it and proof it safe then you can do away with the templac if you want to. The method of leaving the base in a water bowl while annealing was done to prevent over annealing of the base. Sunray posted some good articles written by professionals on the topic. They are worth the read. An annealed case head on a high power rifle is not a good thing. Not trying to start a pissing match I just want people to be informed and safe.

[Merc]

If you are going to try this I'd suggest at least buying one bottle of 450 degree templac. Mark the base with it at least a 1/16th inch up, if the templac turn color before water submersion pitch the brass it is now unsafe to shoot. I can promise you on short cases like .223 if you heat the shoulder to cherry red no matter what shade of color the base will hit the 450 or higher mark if done in open air then water submerged. You might be able to get away with it on longer cases, but why risk it when one can confirm results with templac. Once you get the hang of it and proof it safe then you can do away with the templac if you want to. The method of leaving the base in a water bowl while annealing was done to prevent over annealing of the base. Sunray posted some good articles written by professionals on the topic. They are worth the read. An annealed case head on a high power rifle is not a good thing. Not trying to start a pissing match I just want people to be informed and safe.

I understand the dangers of annealing the whole case and fully intend to only anneal the neck. Thanks for your concern.

Merc

[fguffey]

I understand the dangers of annealing the whole case and fully intend to only anneal the neck. Thanks for your concern.

Merc

They are worth the read. An annealed case head on a high power rifle is not a good thing. Not trying to start a pissing match I just want people to be informed and safe.

It is not only "not a good thing", it is a bad habit. And then I will say again, there are a few simple rules to annealing, this thread is 4 pages old and still there are no rules to annealing.

F. Guffey

[AZshooter]

I do pretty much the same thing, although I set a paint stirring stick across a large container full of water, after heating to cherry red, I tip the stirrer & they simultaneously dump into the water.

My circa mid 70's Lyman manual instructs to stand the unprimed brass in a pan of water at a depth of approx. one half the length (height?) of the brass. Heat case neck with torch until "cherry red", at which point immediately knock the brass over into the water with the tip of the torch. Immediately submerging the "cherry red" casing in cool water amounts to "quenching". This is the only annealing process I ever followed and it worked well for me.

[1-12 INF (M)]

Cherry red is 'way too hot. You're over 950 degrees at that point and your brass is ruined. If you heat the brass just to the point where it changes color to blue/black - that's fine. I use it for 7mm TCU and spin each case in a brass tube that's just a little bigger than the cartridge case in a hand-held drill. Here's a nice page on annealing. http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html

[milboltnut]

no cherry red annealing. Anneal until you see a yellowish color... and put brass in metal pie plate with water just past the rim as you're annealing. Tip over each casing in water.

[M2Phil]

Not that it's necessary... but I put my cases in a LEE trimmer collet chucked up in my drill, and spin the cases as I heat them. Helps me to heat them evenly, and works well... for me anyway.

Yep, same here Paul. They come out as shown in Parashooter's photos.