Questions about a 2nd Allin conversion

[Brownac1983]

Well it's a very nice rifle. It'd be imteresting to study it.
Dick is probably right about it possibly being assembled by a surplus arms merchant.
Ain't it interesting though!!!

Sure enough. I believe I'll pass on it unless I can get it for a good price, but I don't think he'll come too far off of his appraisal (a shame they misidentified it).

I'm convinced I'll be buying something from his collection, and he has nice 1860 Army and a REALLY nice cased 1849 pocket that my wife might shoot me with if I buy.

Thanks for all the help. I'll let you know if I find anything else interesting on it. Hopefully I'll get a chance to have a look at it in person.

-Drew

[Brownac1983]

Another odd thing I just noticed... Like Fred's #6, this one doesn't appear to have the standard stock cutout for the thumb latch (looking at the pictures, I'm not sure if it has one at all). Weird.

[70ish]

This may have been covered already, but are there any marks on the top of the door?

[Brownac1983]

This may have been covered already, but are there any marks on the top of the door?

He's going to get it out and check tonight. I made him a sketch of where to look and asked him to check for any other markings on the rifle.

[CPC]

reversed leaf sight...

I also believe my 1866 has the leaf reversed. I don't have a picture on my PC that shows the leaf up but there is no relief on the side showing while it is down. How common was this? I'll have to check it out when I get home from travels.

[Brownac1983]

I also believe my 1866 has the leaf reversed. I don't have a picture on my PC that shows the leaf up but there is no relief on the side showing while it is down. How common was this? I'll have to check it out when I get home from travels.

It certainly looks like it. At least, it's definitely not relieved on the downrange side. I'm not familiar with the musket sights (both of mine have Buffingtons), but it wouldn't be possible to reverse the leaf without reversing the whole sight would it? The long range leaf doesn't look like a separate piece, it looks like it would have to have been manufactured that way.

[Brownac1983]

I think I may have a lead on the mystery of the one hole sight leaf. Al Fresca had them listed (all are sold) on his site as M67 Cadet rear sights. But,
was there such a thing as an M67 cadet rifle? All I can find info on is the 1866 cadet and 1869 cadet.
http://www.trapdoorcollector.com/TrapdoorSights.html

[Dick Hosmer]

The M1866 sights are a puzzle. They can occur with the sight reliefs facing either way. Of course the base (which utilizes a dovetail and one spanner-head screw) only goes one way on the barrel. It must follow the barrel dovetail. This also affects the pivot screw being towards the muzzle or the breech. Muskets, and the M1865 (1st Allin) have the pivot screw, and dovetail, to the rear. The M865 has one hole in the leaf and one notch at the top.

The M1866 with its' two holes in the leaf (and the subsequent models of 1868 and 1870 which have a similar base but entirely different long-range leaf) have the screw and dovetail in the front. The "correct" orientation of the relief cuts would be toward the muzzle, so as to present the sharpest picture to the shooter's eye. Therefore, the reliefs should be visible when the leaf is down, but not all are.

The "1867" cadet is a term of collector convenience, since they have special (thin) lockplates bearing that date only, whereas all other early TDs use the normal musket plate, dated 1862-1865. It is a completely miniaturized (even the band-springs are shorter!) version of the M1866 rifle, whereas the M1869 cadet is simply a shortened (but not extensively reworked) version of the M1868 service rifle. The 1867 has the sight pivot to the front, and, like the M1865, has but one hole in the leaf.

Hope that helps.

[Brownac1983]

The M1866 sights are a puzzle. They can occur with the sight reliefs facing either way. Of course the base (which utilizes a dovetail and one spanner-head screw) only goes one way on the barrel. It must follow the barrel dovetail. This also affects the pivot screw being towards the muzzle or the breech. Muskets, and the M1865 (1st Allin) have the pivot screw, and dovetail, to the rear. The M865 has one hole in the leaf and one notch at the top.

The M1866 with its' two holes in the leaf (and the subsequent models of 1868 and 1870 which have a similar base but entirely different long-range leaf) have the screw and dovetail in the front. The "correct" orientation of the relief cuts would be toward the muzzle, so as to present the sharpest picture to the shooter's eye. Therefore, the reliefs should be visible when the leaf is down, but not all are.

The "1867" cadet is a term of collector convenience, since they have special (thin) lockplates bearing that date only, whereas all other early TDs use the normal musket plate, dated 1862-1865. It is a completely miniaturized (even the band-springs are shorter!) version of the M1866 rifle, whereas the M1869 cadet is simply a shortened (but not extensively reworked) version of the M1868 service rifle. The 1867 has the sight pivot to the front, and, like the M1865, has but one hole in the leaf.

Hope that helps.

I'm in awe of your knowledge of the subject. I appreciate all the help.
-Drew

[Dick Hosmer]

You might enjoy my 2006 guide book on the early TDs. $16.95 to POB 1367 Colusa CA 95932.

For $42.90 I'll send both of my TD books, signed. The second half of the work (covering the rare .45-70s) was just published on 8-21.

[Brownac1983]

You might enjoy my 2006 guide book on the early TDs. $16.95 to POB 1367 Colusa CA 95932.

For $42.90 I'll send both of my TD books, signed. The second half of the work (covering the rare .45-70s) was just published on 8-21.

Sure. I'll take the signed set. I'll have my wife mail a check today.
-Drew

[Brownac1983]

This may have been covered already, but are there any marks on the top of the door?

The trapdoor is marked with the eagle proof and 1870. He confirmed that there aren't any visible serial numbers. I wonder if Bannerman or whoever was building these got the leftover parts from Springfield? I guess they put whatever sights they had on hand in the more forward location like the newer rifles?

Here's a similar one with a two leaf site and newer stock. Strange. https://www.gunauction.com/buy/13092261