Year of manufacture

[Carlsr]

Would serial # 176342 be 1881 or 1882 production? I have two charts, one gives 1881 and the other 1882.
Thanks

[70ish]

My chart says 1882. The Arsenal worked on a fiscal system running from July to June. Maybe that would help explain the differences?

[Carlsr]

Thank you 70ish. I'm looking at a 1873 carbine with that serial #. It is NJ marked on the barrel and a NJ cartouche just ahead of SWP 1881 cartouche. Just trying to figure out if the stock had been replaced or if it is original to the carbine.

[70ish]

It is probably correct as dated. Especially since both the carbine barrel and the stock bear New Jersey marks. The NJ markings, to me, diminish the value so I doubt they would be "forged" The other possibility would
involve the actions and stocks being switched once the items reached the New Jersey National Guard. I'm not familiar with the state procedures for maintenance so something as simple as an Armory cleaning, could cause
an unregistered "swap" . Such a change would not likely show up in any record - certainly not at Springfield. l think that possibility might be overthinking the whole realm of possibilities, so I would just relax and enjoy
the piece I would just accept the package as "as issued".

[Dick Hosmer]

It is probably correct as dated. Especially since both the carbine barrel and the stock bear New Jersey marks. The NJ markings, to me, diminish the value so I doubt they would be "forged" The other possibility would
involve, the actions and stocks being switched once the items reached the New Jersey National Guard. I'm not familiar with the state procedures for maintenance so something as simple as a Armory cleaning, could cause
an unregistered "swap" . Such a change would not, likely, show up in any record - certainly not at Springfield. l think that possibility might be overthinking the whole realm of possibilities, so I would just relax and enjoy
the piece I would just accept the package as "as issued".

All very good points - as they say, "close enough for government work."

[Carlsr]

I don't have the carbine as it is in auction on Gunbroker. I'm looking for a carbine, don't own one as of yet. I'd rather it be one with a serial # under 50,000 but they seem to be out of my reach when one is found.
Could you tell me why it being stamped NJ would diminish the value to you? I happen to live in that commie State and hope to one day be paroled out as soon as my youngest finds his way. Seems some rifles or carbines are more valuable from other states or company's, why not NJ?
Here is the auction #830912794

[70ish]

New Jersey’s politics aside, although for many setting them aside is impossible and unpatriotic as well, the last half of the 19th Century and before saw the state using the “NJ” on many items they purchased for their state troops. Often the mark of choice was added conspicuously to the barrel and stock of every rifle and carbine they seemed to possess. There was no apparent standard for the placement other than somewhere on the left side of a barrel and some convenient place on a stock. The marks often appear to be applied by steam powered tools with such force that one could ask if there was any structural damage being done. Additionally, pieces were sometimes purchased without the usual arsenal standard cartouche thus eliminating bits of information found on the other, similar models. It seems to say that the Federal standards aren’t good enough.

After saying all this, however, it should be overall condition, markings and history that determine ultimate collectibility, but I think the post Civil War pieces you might find with the NJ marks have practically no chance to have been used in those events tied to the history of things like the weapons of Western Expansion and for some (myself included), it is the potential history of an item that sets it apart and makes it collectible.

[Carlsr]

Thanks 70ish.
All you say could be why there is only a 400.00 bid on it thus far. Don't know if you looked at it but the carbine does appear to be correct with all Springfield markings present and crisp along with the NJ markings. Also looks to have been in close proximity to a painting project with small white spots here and there.

[Dick Hosmer]

Ah yes, the dreaded white paint disease - NOT unusual! Best way I've found to improve the appearance before trying solvents or abrasives is to mount a needle in a short piece of dowel, and pick carefully at the spots - you'd be surprised at how much will just 'pop' off, leaving little or no residue.

[70ish]

Thanks 70ish.
Don't know if you looked at it but the carbine does appear to be correct with all Springfield markings present and crisp along with the NJ markings. Also looks to have been in close proximity to a painting project with small white spots here and there.

I looked at the listing this morning for the first time and I see some of the paint you mentioned. I wouldn't feel right about offering specific advice for you unless I knew more about you. I will try to offer some general advice for you, though, and I would start with being patient. In the old days, you could buy an 1873 for only a few dollars, so it didn't hurt so much to get something that wasn't what you wanted and it wasn't so hard to pass it on to someone who was okay with the thing. Nowadays, it's not so easy to find the things you want, but they will show up eventually. Living where you do, it might be harder to come across examples to choose from. There are many carbines out there and some are still fairly priced. Almost all of them have been touched, tweaked and otherwise altered to suit the needs of the seller. The best thing you can do is read. Read about the things that interest you and learn about the details. I'm exaggerating - a little - when I say that you will never know it ALL about the things that interest you, but you can at least learn enough to anticipate those details that turn out to be truly important to YOU. Since a couple of days after the first carbine left Springfield Arsenal, there have been changes to the design. Every piece, small or large, seen or unseen, wood or steel, has been tweaked, twisted and altered by the Arsenal or the folks that used them. Updates and upgrades will drive you nuts unless you learn to accept the logic for the changes. You only need to please yourself about your purchase. Don't worry about others stuff. Many of the changes that have been made may be good ones, others not so much. But you can change things too, if you must, but the changes themselves are a part of the history of the piece. We are just stewards of our things until they pass to others

All this in mind, I think the carbine you have been looking at is not really all that bad. If this is what you can afford then enjoy it. Take care of your family first, then understand that, like classic cars, these carbines can be money pits. As Dick advised, the paint can be handled. In fact, doing so is part of the fun. You feel like you're saving something from the past And that's worthwhile. In looking at the carbine on Gunbroker, the rear sight is of a later date - probably about 1886 or 7, but whoever changed the sight also updated the barrel band to match the sight. Those are things the State might have done and the Buffington sights are what went to Cuba with these carbines.That's good stuff and part of the history. The cartouche looks to be strong. and the whole thing will probably look better with a good cleaning. If you can get it at a proper price (for you), and understand what could be potentially ahead, then maybe it would be okay to scratch your itch. That's how a collection begins.

[Carlsr]

70ish, here is a picture of the carbine all cleaned up. Turned out to be a stared carbine. The front sight had a long pin in it which was for a pin on sight cover. Bought one from Al and is now on the carbine. Here is a photo of it all cleaned up but without the sight cover. Cleaned up rather nicely and compared to others I've seen this one was a good deal!
IMG_20190922_154242024.jpg

[Dick Hosmer]

Looks very nice, Carl.

[Carlsr]

Thanks Dick.

[lyman]

I looked at the listing this morning for the first time and I see some of the paint you mentioned. I wouldn't feel right about offering specific advice for you unless I knew more about you. I will try to offer some general advice for you, though, and I would start with being patient. In the old days, you could buy an 1873 for only a few dollars, so it didn't hurt so much to get something that wasn't want you wanted and it wasn't so hard to pass it on to someone who was okay with the thing. Nowadays, it's not so easy to find the things you want, but they will show up eventually. Living where you do, it might be harder to come across examples to choose from. There are many carbines out there and some are still fairly priced. Almost all of them have been touched, tweaked and otherwise altered to suit the needs of the seller. The best thing you can do is read. Read about the things that interest you and learn about the details. I'm exaggerating - a little - when I say that you will never know it ALL about the things that interest you, but you can at least learn enough to anticipate those details that turn out to be truly important to YOU. Since a couple of days after the first carbine left Springfield Arsenal, there have been changes to the design. Every piece, small or large, seen or unseen, wood or steel, has been tweaked, twisted and altered by the Arsenal or the folks that used them. Updates and upgrades will drive you nuts unless you learn to accept the logic for the changes. You only need to please yourself about your purchase. Don't worry about others stuff. Many of the changes that have been made may be good ones, others not so much. But you can change things too, if you must, but the changes themselves are a part of the history of the piece. We are just stewards of our things until they pass to others

All this in mind, I think the carbine you have been looking at is not really all that bad. If this is what you can afford then enjoy it. Take care of your family first, then understand that, like classic cars, these carbines can be money pits. As Dick advised, the paint can be handled. In fact, doing so is part of the fun. You feel like you're saving something from the past And that's worthwhile. In looking at the carbine on Gunbroker, the rear sight is of a later date - probably about 1886 or 7, but whoever changed the sight also updated the barrel band to match the sight. Those are things the State might have done and the Buffington sights are what went to Cuba with these carbines.That's good stuff and part of the history. The cartouche looks to be strong. and the whole thing will probably look better with a good cleaning. If you can get it at a proper price (for you), and understand what could be potentially ahead, then maybe it would be okay to scratch your itch. That's how a collection begins.

a very good post that can be applied to just about every realm of collecting,

thanks

[Dick Hosmer]

Agreed - a very good post indeed.