Need help 1888 Trapdoor

[scosgt]

LGS has a rifle in the 320,000 serial range. Stock is unsanded with perfect 1888 cartouche. P proof, no unit markings. The trap shows a lot of case colors, the blue is mostly intact. It is a really nice looking gun

But I am concerned that the serial does not match the cartouche date. So wondering if it is a Frankengun.

The stock is original finish with a few dents. tThe breeck block has nice case colors. There is no rust or pitting with most blue intact. Bore is shiny with no pits but the rifling is not super deep.

LGS about 1K out the door and I realky like the gun but I know that parts guns have no collector interest. need advice

[Dick Hosmer]

There are 3 basic categories of "M1888" rifles:

(1) The "everything looks right" ones, with serials over 500,000 and dates from 1891-1894.

(2) The ones which were arsenal converted from M1884 experimental rod-bayonet rifles, which had serials in the 320,000 range. Such reworking is why UN-altered M1884XRRB specimens are SO rare.

(3) Those having any number over 96300 (many occur in the low 100K range) representing cleaning out the shop at end of production.

It is quite possible that you have found one from group (2). The 1888 date is unusual but not out of line. If the condition is nice, $1000 is a fair price.

[scosgt]

So I went back and looked at it again.
The serial is 320,000
The toggle is marked "Model 1884"
The cartouche is 1889 (my mistake).
The rear sight is correct for an 1889 gun.
So the serial is about 3 years off for the date on the stock.
The entire gun is very nice, most of the blue is intact, in fact the trigger guard area (serrated trigger BTW) is probably 90% + blue.
While it seems a little too good to be true, everything on the gun is in the same condition.
But I just can't get past the 3 year diff in the date.
I know as a military collector that if a gun was restocked at some point, the stock would not have the original cartouche and no arsenal marks.
It appears that an older receiver may have been re-built entirely into a new gun?
Anyway, passed on it for now. Just not sure.

[Dick Hosmer]

320,000 even, or just in that range? A lot of M1884XRRB numbers have been recorded - I can check for you.

1889 cartouche makes much more sense. I'd still consider it if I were you. If it were just a regular bog-standard M1884 rifle, I'd balk at the mismatch too - but, as I tried to point out above, there IS a perfectly good, well-known, legitimate reason for the offset, IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE. Normally your concern would be well-founded, to be sure.

[scosgt]

320,000 even, or just in that range? A lot of M1884XRRB numbers have been recorded - I can check for you.

1889 cartouche makes much more sense. I'd still consider it if I were you. If it were just a regular bog-standard M1884 rifle, I'd balk at the mismatch too - but, as I tried to point out above, there IS a perfectly good, well-known, legitimate reason for the offset, IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE. Normally your concern would be well-founded, to be sure.

I think it was something like 320,048. Is there a reference for the rebuilt guns?
Why does 1889 make more sense?
Would they have replaced the trap door?

[Dick Hosmer]

(1) If you can tell me the actual number, I'll see what I can do, from a couple of sources. What reference, if any, I can find will be what it is. AFAIK, no "list" was made saying "we took THIS rifle and rebuilt it."

(2) Because (late) 1889 is when they started producing the improved "production" rod-bayonet rifle, in a mixture of all-new arms and rebuilds.

(3) No, there would have been no reason to do so. The "Model 1888" nomenclature for the rod-bayonet rifle was STRICTLY on paper - the guns themselves were NEVER so marked.

(4) Since UNALTERED Model 1884 experimental rifles (1000 made) are so scarce, and so high-priced when found, the closest most collectors can ever hope to come is to have an altered one, which gives a little "extra" cachet to their rod-bayonet rifle. It doesn't make it "rare", and a lot of people don't care - BUT - if you are going to have a mismatched "Model 1888" most people would, I think,, agree that it would be far better to have one of the experimental conversions than say something in the 120000 range which, while still (probably) "genuine arsenal work" is less "interesting".

(5) I will muddy the water here on a new subject - there ARE 100 rifles with "US/Model/1888" blocks! They are NOT rod-bayonets, but rather have a special modification to the cam-latch mechanism.

(6) Am not trying to twist your arm - only to supply some info based on 50 years (this month) of collecting the trapdoor. If you will not be happy with anything other than a 500,000 plus number, then do not buy this gun - there are PLENTY of the high-numbered examples available.

[scosgt]

Thanks for your patience. I am a military shotgun collector and this is new to me.
That being said, I may have created some confusion.
The gun I am looking at is not a rod bayonet gun, it is a service rifle with a cleaning rod (ramrod?).
Does that change things at all? I will call to get the serial if it still matters in light of the fact that it is not a rod bayonet gun,
so let me know.
Thanks!

[Dick Hosmer]

You're quite welcome. If it is a regular service rifle, then there is NO rationale for the mismatch, and I would pass. $1,000 is a LOT these days for anything less than excellent condition with NO abnormalities. I'd suggest the following website: https://www.trapdoorcollector.com Al knows his stuff and his prices are very fair.

[scosgt]

Thanks!
I had a feeling it was a parts gun, although in very nice condition.
When it looks too good to be true it usually is.