Legal question for a Trapdoor

[1mark]

Is it legal to cut down a Trapdoor into a pistol. Barrel would be less than 8 inches? Still using the Trapdoor receiver and lock.
It is not a question as to why? But is it legal to do and own?

This is what comes up during a late night discussions.

[Dick Hosmer]

Up-front disclaimer: I am NOT an attorney, nor an expert in firearms law!!!

Excellent question. Fifty years ago, when the country still had some sanity, no one would have cared, at all. Now, with hysteria in full swing, I'd think it would probably depend on where you live, and who found out about it. Theoretically, trapdoors are not "firearms" under many provisions of the law, but I do not think that would save you from a determined "anti-gunner", with an axe to grind. I believe there are those prosecutors who would consider it a wobbler, since it does use fixed ammunition which is readily available in commercial channels. I recently ran into this when purchasing a Model 1868 rifle, and had to undergo de facto registration with a DROS4473, and 10-day waiting period. Sheer lunacy.

Yes, there was a prototype, the Model 1869 .50-70, of which a bare handful were made, and yes, Hollywood has done the very same thing to make "pirate pistols" by the hundreds. but those were in the one case official, made as such, therefore OK, and the others were done in a more enlightened time for a clear purpose. The issue is not simply having a large bore (semi) "concealable" weapon, it is how it got that way. There are laws against making rifles into pistols. Whatever you do, don't bore the barrel smooth - thereby creating a sawed-off shotgun.

I do believe that is is OK for a person to MAKE, from scratch, for his own use, not for sale, any sort of weapon not otherwise proscribed by law, in other words no one would be allowed to make a functional full-auto firearm. The key word here is "make", the sin is in the modification. All of this is, of course, semantic bull**** - as evidenced by the fact that Krag rifle 152668 is a non-issue, but its' twin brother 152672 is a fiendish instrument of death, subject to all the draconian rules that can possibly be applied.

The more I think about this, the more I think there is probably no "safe" black and white answer to your question which would cover all possible ramifications, in all jurisdications, under all circumstances.

Just my .02. Your mileage may vary.

[da gimp]

as Dick says....... you or a buddy making one for fun, wouldn't be worth the huge amount of legal defense fees if you ran into a bitterly anti-gun DA or LEO ....... or one with an axe to grind........... That being said...i.e. if HRA was still in business & was still making new trapdoors ( or any other lawful firearms manufacturer).............. they... the original manufacturer could take one of their own NEW receivers that had never been used to make a rifle or shotgun & use it to make a LEGAL trapdoor pistol................as long as it was of correct legal size.... (barrel not being too long) & not having a shoulder stock............

[Johnny P]

The Model 1892 and 1894 Winchester short barreled carbines and rifles fall under the law, but I don't know if being pre-1899 makes a difference or not. To register one it has to be authenticated as being manufactured that way rather than cut down later. At one time they had to be shipped to the Winchester Museum in Cody for authentication, but I believe photos are acceptable now.

[Dick Hosmer]

In addition to the so-called "Trapper" models, I can remember the hoops that that some poor guy with a super-short barelled M1885 Winchester single-shot had to go through, years ago. He ultimately prevailed, but it was not a smooth road at all. Such pieces have to be handled on an indivdual basis.

Again, the problem here is - as I understand it - not the simple possession of such an arm, but the conversion of such by an unlicensed individual. No one in their right mind would prosecute anyone for a TD "pirate pistol", but there is no shortage of little tin gods who enjoy flexing their muscle, so, it's no slam dunk.

[John Sukey]

I recall that the arsenal did make one 50-70 trapdoor pistol. The guy who test fired it suffered a broken wrist!

[jaie5070]

At least one pistol has showed up on one of the auction sites made from a martini and still in 577-450.

[Dick Hosmer]

Perchance 'twas some nabob's howdah pistol? Last ditch defense when a tiger climbed your elephant.

[jaie5070]

It may have been a howdah type but I wonder if it would have been of any use. There was a video floating around for a while of some people riding elephants in the bush.
A tiger did a fast attack head-on, jumping over the head of the elephant and clawing one of the riders/guides. It happened so fast that a gun would be almost useless unless you
have it at the ready.

[StockDoc]

I would still be a SBR. Illegal if the police could prove it was done recently. Chances are unless used in a crime or stolen from you, law enforcement will not hassle you on it.

[da gimp]

it would be my guess is that he would have to prove it was a legally made pistol ............or at best....forfeiting it to that police dept.'s evidence room's version of capt. crunch........in lieu of prosecution....

[StockDoc]

Just like an antique shotgun, if sawed off, it is illegal, if the prosecutor can prove it.

[Dick Hosmer]

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Trapdoor pistol

One of just a handful - the specimen above is in the Rock Island Arsenal museum

[da gimp]

Just like an antique shotgun, if sawed off, it is illegal, if the prosecutor can prove it.

Rick...... with the anti gun mentality of a lot of courts, prosecutors......... it would be my guess that the defense would need to prove it was legal............ or face forfeiture instead of incurring crushing legal bills..............

My brother in law Pat had , had to use deadly force to save his oldest brother & his brother in law from a guy who had them on their knees. at the point of a pistol...... begging for their lives............

Pat told the guy to drop his pistol three times.... before the guy raised it the last time and said, "No, I think I'll just kill them".... where upon Pat put two .45ACP through the back of his neck/spine & one into his heart.... dropping him instantly............. in front of 30 plus witnesses.......... some friends of his. some friends of the dead guy............. and incurred $85,000 plus in defense fees before being found innocent in a jury trial...............being right & innocent means squat..............

[StockDoc]

da gimp, names not Rick, lol


Had a guy where I volunteered at who got into a foot pursuit, the suspect hid at a corner and cold cocked the guy. Knocking him to the ground and taking his flash light. The suspect was getting ready to swing the flash light at his head, when the officer pulled his Beretta and put 3 holes, killing him. The family was pissed that he did not try to resuscitate the dead guy and protested for months in front of the police station.