Serial Number Check - Trapdoor Please

[Tom Trevor]

Note that the stop for the rod is broken at forend this causes poor shooting due to binding of barrel to band during recoil. The stop was designed as it is to prevent this. Just an observation.

[Dick Hosmer]

Thanks for taking time to post the additional pics. I'll gladly agree that the stock and receiver are likely contemporary, as the stock passes both tests.

However, if you thought that wood was worked by hand in the 1870s you would be mistaken. The stocks were rough-turned on Blanchard lathes - a direct ancestor of the modern duplicating machine, and all of the inletting was done by machines, with very sophisticated (for the time) equipment. Only the overall exterior smoothing involved any significant amount of hand labor. The metal parts often fit the wood so exactly and so tightly that careless disassembly can easily result in chipping. A copy of "Ordnance Memo #22" from 1878 (which has been reprinted) would be of great interest in this regard.

In the end, I'll have to stand with my contention that the hammer, latch and breechblock are not proper for that period, and that SA did not put them there.

[Bergerboy]

Note that the stop for the rod is broken at forend this causes poor shooting due to binding of barrel to band during recoil. The stop was designed as it is to prevent this. Just an observation.

Thanks for the input Tom.
Not too sure what you're seeing that I'm not. I took a couple extra pix this morning of the cleaning rod fit-up area, and I don't see anything broken.
The rod fits fully into its keeper hole in the stock, and the hourglass shape and notch seem to snap nicely into the spring tab on the underside of the stock when everything is re-assembled.
Let me know what I may be missing.
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[Dick Hosmer]

I think Tom was referring to pic #1 of post #15. At first glance it looks like the keeper is broken/cracked in line with the band spring pin - a fairly common failure - but it could just be discoloration from rust and corrosion. The fact that the rod seems to engage properly is not proof that the keeper is OK, so you would have to remove it to be sure - something I'd not recommend in this case. Tom is a VERY experienced trapdoor shooter (in addition to being a collector) so he is correct that a broken keeper can have a negative affect on accuracy. If your rifle will not group, the keeper may be part of the problem.

[Bergerboy]

Thanks Guys,
How would I check for this broken keeper?
There does appear to be some springiness to the nub that engages in the rod notch, which seems to press inward when compressed.
Does that longitudinal metal strip in the photo, need to be all one piece? Or is there meant to be a cross-ways separation between the main strip and the forward num that engages with the rod notch?
I have not done deep accuracy checks yet with the ~20 rounds that I've shot so far in her.
And its not like I'm going to be taking this rifle hunting any time soon, so accuracy is not as critical.
But from an OCD perspecticve, I'd really like to get it to a fully functional state, if at all possible.
If broken, is this part replaceable? And are replacement parts available for reasonable cost?

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[Dick Hosmer]

The keeper is one piece. You should be able to ascertain just by wiglging it, whether or not it has separated into two. It is retained by a pin on the band spring, which can be driven out from the left side, using a small punch. The part is readily available at modest cost (like $20 or so). See classifieds, and also list of parts suppliers, at www.trapdoorcollector.com

[Bergerboy]

Capture.JPGGoing back to the Hammer tooling issue, is there a good photo comparison of all the variations of hammers, that clearly shows the differences in the gnurling/hatching patterns?
I've seen the overall hammer variations of the Trapdoors, but so far, none show good views of the thumb purchase area and the cross-hatching patterns.
I'm curious if the one I've got was reworked from an original pattern for some reason, and what that reason might have been?? (like the original hatching was worn down, etc.). I can sort of make out some remnants of grooves below the existing pattern, which could lend some clues.
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[Dick Hosmer]

There are three general patterns of hammer knurling on trapdoors - the first of which (fine cross-lines in a shield-shaped border) is confined to the muskets, 1865 and 1866 Allin conversions, and the new-made .50-70 models of 1868-1870, so does not apply here.

The first of the .45-70s, up to around 30,000, had coarse criss-cross diagonal lines with no border. There was apparently no set design, as to thickness or number of lines, line spacing, etc. To the best of my knowledge, none originally had horizontal "bottom" lines like yours.

After around 30,000, all hammers had a fine diagonal-crossed-line pattern in an oval border.

Types 1 and 3 were stamped (or rolled) while type 2, yours, was clearly hand-done, since it seems they are all unique.

[Bergerboy]

Hi Folks - Quick update:
The rod keeper was broken, as spotted by Tom - Thanks!
I put in an email request with Al Frasca, as he has several originals listed on his parts website. Looks like all the ones ID'd as 45-70, would be perfect replacement for mine.
As an alternative, is there any way to repair the one I've got? (JB Weld, etc.?)
Seeing the 1870 patent stamp on the part, makes it really hard to simply replace it and relegate the original to the spare parts bin.
However, I'm guessing that if this part takes enough direct stress from the recoil to actually affect the barrel fit-up and the accuracy, then its likely not going to be enough to glue the part back together, even with high-strength metal epoxy.
Any inputs from the experts?


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[Dick Hosmer]

It's a very common part, NOT worth repairing (or keeping the broken leftovers).

The replacement from Al will have the same patent date.

[Tom Trevor]

I have seen them brazed lasted two shots, there is a lot of force on it during recoil.

[Bergerboy]

Thanks Folks,
Went with my son to the Novi, Mich Antique Arms Show on Saturday, and asked around for Trapdoor experts with parts.
Was going there to look for a replacement rod lock piece as described above, since I hadn't heard back yet from Al Frasca on my inquiry for the same on his website.
Lo & Behold, the table I was directed to, was manned by, none other than The Man himself.
He happened to have the very parts that were listed on the website, there for sale in his bins.
So, for $15, I not only got an identical replacement part, but also a nice 20 minute history lesson from Mr. Frasca.
The rod lock fit perfectly into the groove in my stock fore-end, and I'm anxious to get it back out to the range to see if it tightens up the groupings at all.
I also picked up another Trapdoor Bayonet I needed (a "U.S" brass button frog with only 1 dot), as well as a unique dummy version of the 45-70 cartridge box, marked "SMA", used for training by the Sarasota Military Academy.
All-in-all, a pretty good day!