7th Cavalry Serial Numbers

[cwbuff]

Is there a good reference that documents the known serial numbers of US M1873 carbines issued to the 7th Cavalry? From what I have seen, it appears to be an area of active research.

[Dick Hosmer]

Not in one place. I've been compiling numbers from various sources for nearly 50 years, and have recorded about 1200 early carbines. Of those, about 70 have some degree (from ironclad to very tenuous) of provenance to the 7th Cav. All of the numbers I have will be published in the book I am finishing up now - hopefully out this year, but more likely next.

Was that a rhetorical question, or did you have a specific number in mind? About the best I can do at the present time is tell you whether it is in a "hot" area, or way out in left field. Known 7th guns run from 12221 to 43617.

[cwbuff]

I will be interested in buying your book when it comes out. I have an early M1873 carbine. I like to research the items in my collection - it gives them more meaning to me from both a historical and technical perspective. I have done some research on Wilder Brigade Spencer rifles. From that research it became clear that the guns were not crated, shipped and issued in serial number order. I assume the M1873 carbines were done in a similar manner. Clearly our ancestors did not have any consideration for future collectors - but they sure did make a good sport out of trying to figure it all out.

Here are some pics of my M1873 carbine:

[cwbuff]

...and some additional pics:
band.jpghammer.jpgfsight.jpgrsight.jpgesa.jpg.

[Dick Hosmer]

Thanks for sharing the pics - a nice looking gun, overall. It was a new number to me, falling between previously recorded carbines 33729 and 33742.

FWIW, 32811, 33759 and 34874 were surveyed out of the 7th, at Ft. Keogh in April of 1878. Were they with Reno/Benteen et al, at LBH? No one knows - that is what I mean by tenuous.

You are entirely correct in your assumption regarding non-linear shipping, issue, etc.

[raymeketa]

Many years ago I was a collector of Springfield Carbines and a Custer Buff. I was very serious about both. The quest to tie particular carbines to the LBH was just as intriguing then as it is now. The many searches (by me and by others) seldom resulted in anything positive. With today's Internet it should be a little easier and if anyone has been able to put together a list of possibles, it is Mr. Hosmer. It almost makes me wish I was still into both the Carbines and LBH. Almost.

Ray

[cwbuff]

Thanks for the information. Is the "Custer era" considered before SN 50,000 or 43,700 or some other SN?

[Dick Hosmer]

SA made just over 20,000 "first model" "long wrist" carbines. ALL of them were made well before LBH, so any given specimen is theoretically possible to have been there. All such carbines were also under 50,000 (more like 48,000) - and no more were made until the improved M1877 model at around 75,000. I'm not sure how one would define "Custer era" - obviously, I suppose, it would center on 1876.

Then, one must consider that there were 28,000 other arms made during the same period - mostly rifles, but a few cadets as well. The models did not run in solid blocks though trends and clumps are fairly obvious. There are three blocks of early carbines. None from the first block are known to have made it to LBH, at least on the US side.

As noted earlier, in gleaning from a great many sources, about 70 carbine numbers are associated with the 7th at LBH. In most cases the number is known but the whereabouts of the gun (or even if it exists - most likely do not) is not known. There are a handful of forensically ID'd specimens for whom their owners have paid fantastic sums of money, but the ID process used has its' detractors, and some of the stories would appear to have issues and or leaps of faith. It's not an exact science, but it makes for a grand game, all the same.

A number of people "used" to collect TDs but later changed to something else - that is where I differ; my focus has never shifted. This has gotten far too long - hopefully you get the basic picture.

[cwbuff]

Will this information be documented in your book?

[Dick Hosmer]

I have not yet decided whether to present the "First Model Carbines" as a chapter, or an appendix.

The book was intended to present only the rare, limited production arms omitted from North Cape's basic book, and that model fits neither classification. My only reason for including it at all was to disseminate the 50 years of collected serial numbers. If it appears as a chapter, there will be at least three or four pages of text, plus the list of 1200+ numbers. Those with association to the 7th Cav. will be marked "7th".

For reasons (mostly space - I'm already in trouble) that I do not wish to go into at this time, none of the individual numbers will have any associated "documentation".

With no intent to be flippant, this will be a soft-cover "take to the shows" pocket reference, not Funk & Wagnall's.

[jjrothWA]

Locate a "Dixie gun Works catalog there is a listing of SN's. It spans three different SN ranges that are thoght to been assigned to the 7th.

[Art]

Interesting story on this. An old boy was writing in a gun magazine, I've forgotten which one and didn't keep it, regarding an early Carbine he had. He learned that the LBH people had done a lot of archeology on the site and had a catalog of spent cases recovered from the battle field. On a whim he sent a fired case from his carbine, they compared it to their catalogue of cases from the battlefield and came up with a match! I suppose that means that his old carbine went from just really valuable to incredibly valuable.

[Art]

Here is an article about the carbine in my above post.

http://weaponsman.com/?p=10970

[Dick Hosmer]

I was really wondering just which carbine this was going to be!

There are some problems with that gun (which was first written up in Man-At-Arms magazine, Oct. 2011) some trivial, some not so much. In no particular order:

(1) As presented, it is not in original configuration. The stock has been changed, which means it either stayed with the Army, or was put together later.

(2) The breechblock (CRITICAL to the forensic ID process) shows a definite difference in color and patina, even though it is of correct type.

(3) The serial number is FAR removed from any other carbines (ALL "first model" carbines were produced well before the battle).

(4) I was interested enough at the time to run down Dr. Scott and we corresponded about the arm, to no satisfactory conclusion I might add. He is unquestionably THE man to go to about the archeology of the site, and the forensic testing process, but I was surprised (no, amazed) to discover that he is only marginally knowlegeable about the finer nuances of early trapdoor features and was unable to corroborate that the gun as presented to him was correct.

(5) The comparative testing of cartridge cases is NOT an exact science, for a number of reasons.

(6) The batch of cases which wound up being "associated" with this carbine's breechblock were found in an "odd" location which, if I'm remembering correctly, does not tie well with the battle narrative.

In my opinion, this arm could be the poster child for the whole "Custer Carbine Carousel", perfectly illustrating the pitfalls of blending artifacts from a remote time with happenstance, wishful thinking, etc.

[Art]

All good except - tool mark evidence is definitive in court, in fact as definitive, from the legal standpoint, as fingerprints or DNA (I actually took an FBI course that include tool mark evidence which, with firearms includes rifling impressions on bullets as well as those made on the case. A lot of people have been convicted due to tool mark evidence found on cartridge cases, especially shotgun cases. Firearms are altered to indicate that projectiles and cases are not tied to a particular weapon but not that they are. In other words changing the tool marks on a weapon is always done to deceive folks into believing that the marks on projectiles and cases did not come from a suspect or questioned firearm, not the reverse.

Now the evidence doesn't prove the weapon was fired at the battle, only that cartridge cases found on the battlefield can be tied to the breech block of that carbine.

You are correct in your conclusion about the "Custer Carbine Carousel," in my opinion anyhow.