The 1911 "fatal flaw" controversy

[bobby L]

Hi all,

I was somewhat surprised to read about the controversy caused by using the the second finger to pull the trigger while using the index to quickly line up the muzzle of the pistol to the target. I was a 2nd lt. in the army and never was taught that method of firing the 45. At least I can't recall it and I know I never read the manual, warning of it's use.
However I do have a 1911 that I shoot and I had somehow dislodged the slide stop pin while firing it on two occasions. It probably had everthing to do with my grip.

The way that I corrected this problem, (which was probably my problem and not the pistol's), was to dimple the slide stop pin where the plunger spring contacted it. It never happened again but my "give up" was in not having the slide lock back against the slide stop pin after the last shot was fired. Since I was shooting on the range and not for my life, that seemed to be a reasonable give up.
The Slide stop pin I dimpled was an extra part I bought and i'll be experimenting further with altering it slightly again in an attempt to get the slide to lock back with the stop after that last shot.

In any event, I think it can be safely stated that any real "fatal flaw" in a confrontation with a 1911 has to be in facing one... without having one. It is still the king of pistols in my book!

[SMOKEY]

IMO the only flaw in the .45 is that they arent current issue. Sure the 9's hold more rounds but when it takes more to put your target down what have you gained? Now this is only my opinion and opinions are like a$$holes, everyone has one some just crappier than others. Let the comments begin.

[Johnny P]

The person that came up with the "fatal flaw" must have been a writer for one of the gun rags. Who in their right mind would point their finger to acquire a target. Must have been a slow day around the old water cooler.

[bobby L]

The 1911 "fatal flaw" controversy

Target shooting and reacting to a threat are of course two different things entirely. I can see the logic and value of pointing shooting at the target instead of using the sights, especially when there is more than one threat to deal with. This method of using the index finger would appear to work fine for MOST PISTOLS, and the US Army apparently agrees, but I've never experienced any training with this method, which makes sense if the .45 was the only pistol being issued at the time and the slide pin had that tendency to drift out during recoil when pressured by the index finger.

Personally, in addition to the slide stop problem with the .45, I found that when I tried dry firing using this method, the tightening of my gripping two fingers against my thumb weakened the pressure on the grip safety to the point where it didn't always freely disengage. Probably as a result of the size of my hand more than anything else, but still unacceptable in a shootout situation.

I totally agree with the other posters that the "fatal flaw" was at best an overreaction at not being able to use the alternate shooting method on the 1911. The countless thousands of lives John Browning's great invention has saved over it's long illustrious history far outshadows any perceived fatal flaws with this great pistol. Racking that hand cannon in the middle of night would have the same effect as charging a shotgun for me.... and probably a homeowner, and would be suicide for the home invader as well!

[Guamsst]

In an unrelated related story....I loved shooting my CZ52 with my thumb resting in the grip notch for the safety. I tried allot of holds and that one gave me the most consistency when I was quickdrawing on light switches before taking it to the range. At the range though, after a few rounds, trigger pull would become insanely heavy. About the third mag, the trigger locked and try as hard as I could, I could not fire the pistol. My thumb was bumping the safety on each shot and pushing it part way to the "safe" position. It was resetting with each mag swap then working its way back up.

Most pistols are designed by smart people who assume shooters are going to use a standard hold. If you do something odd and the pistol has a problem, it is your flaw, not the pistols.

[bobby L]

Guamsst
I agree and I wonder how much "hollow wood" is responsible for the unconventional handling of firearms by how they are used in their movies. It seems hollywood's guns never run out of ammunition and the hero's bullets never miss and the only requirement is that the actors " look cool" when doing the shooting. Sometimes Hollywood's inexperience with firearms shows as in the "Movie Stand By Me". Apparently Rob Reiner or as Archie Bunker correctly called him, "meathead", never actually fired A 1911 before making his Picture. One of the scenes at the end of the movie has a kid firing a 1911 in the air to get a bully's attention, and then re-cocking the hammer of the same pistol to let the bully know he really really meant business... Too bad meat head never fired one or he would have known the hammer was already cocked after that first round.

[Shooter5]

The potential for a slide malfunction is real; personally, it has occurred once with a USGI issue M1911A1 while deployed. I determined what/how it happened due to placement of fingers and the solution was to modify the slide release by shortening its length so as to seat it countersunk below the frame slightly less than flush.

The FBI issue 1911's have this type of slide release as does the commercial TRP.

http://www.springfield-armory.com/armory.php?model=11

[Guamsst]

modify the slide release by shortening its length so as to seat it countersunk below the frame slightly less than flush.

The FBI issue 1911's have this type of slide release as does the commercial TRP.

Sweet, 3 minutes and a dremel and I'll have another custom part

[Johnny P]

fatal: leading to failure

Since the design is now north of 100 years old and seems to be stronger than ever, when did it fail?

[Ken Hill]

I wonder how well this pointer grip works with a revolver. I can only imagine the damage to the tip of the index finger when it finds itself in the path of the gas discharge between the cylinder and the forcing cone.

The real question is "what was in the water cooler?"

Back to the 1911! Altering the slide stop is not a new idea. If I recall correctly the early government models (serial # ca 20,000 to 105,000) had a slot milled into the face of the slide stop where it met the plunger.

[Shooter5]

Sweet, 3 minutes and a dremel and I'll have another custom part

That is exactly what happened; apparently Brownells didn''t have a store in Baghdad.

[Shooter5]

.

Most pistols are designed by smart people who assume shooters are going to use a standard hold. If you do something odd and the pistol has a problem, it is your flaw, not the pistols.

That relates precisely to the issue; the slide release malfunction can occur due to hand placement BECAUSE a two-handed grip in the 19th/early 20th century was essentially non-existent! Everyone was taught to shoot a pistol with a single-hand, thus, the idea that the slide release could even be manipulated during the firing sequence was inconceivable during its design and early use.
Currently, the opposite is now true; shooting a pistol one-handed is seen as crazy! The solution, however, is simple and one does not have to change grip/hand placement; merely modify the slide release and its G2G.

[Johnny P]

I think someone touched on this, but the Bro's in the hood prefer the sideways hold where the index finger could substitute for the sights. Taking it a step further, the sights could be removed entirely if the index finger becomes the preferred sighting method.

[Shooter5]

IMO the only flaw in the .45 is that they arent current issue.

Some US Military units are still issued the M1911 series; the USMC is calling their latest version the M45.

http://www.colt.com/ColtMilitary/News/tabid/84/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/54/Colt-Defense-LLC-Announces-Award-of-Marine-Corps-M45-Close-Quarter-Battle-Pistol-CQBP-Contract.aspx

Other US military units also still have access to the M1911A1 as an alternative issue depending on preference such as dissatisfaction with the M9 and/or other makes/models/calibers. However, it is not as popular anymore and if a 45ACP is sought, it is much more likely to either be a modern design or the occasional modern manufacture of some type of 1911.

[emmagee1917]

I think someone touched on this, but the Bro's in the hood prefer the sideways hold where the index finger could substitute for the sights. Taking it a step further, the sights could be removed entirely if the index finger becomes the preferred sighting method.

Naw , just adapted.
Well pooo , can't get the pics of a Glock with sights on the side of the slide to post.
sorry ,
Chris