US&S EXP No 8

[gbethu]

This is a US&S recently acquired. Great finish.

[Bob K]

Very nice Gordon.

[Scott Gahimer]

I think you should have looked at some original US&S pistols, then specifically researched the EXP...and then consulted with an expert. Did it come with a return policy?

[gbethu]

Yes Scott, I did. It's straight. I know you're pissed that I was able to buy Chuck Clawson's cover photo Colt serial 39 and his Singer, but don't try to publicly pee over other guns I acquire just to "pay me back". There are plenty of knowledgeable and trusted dealers and I used them to vet this pistol. Hope your knee is getting better every day.
gordon

[Scott Gahimer]

Gordon:

No. 39 and S800418 have nothing to do with this gun and I am not pissed at you. You post pistols on a public forum where I post and I posted what I did, not for "pay back", but so others will learn and know what I think. If you think it's straight, by all means, keep it and enjoy it. I didn't expect you to agree with me or to be interested in what I see or think. Did the same knowledgeable and trusted dealers that steered you to 10, 501, 502, 503, 110000 and some others you've posted steer you to this pistol?

In a discussion we had after the Morphy auction, you told me you had dinner with Mr. Morphy. You told me after I inspected Super .38 #3 and told the auction it was refinished and the markings were engraved...including the serial number...that Morphy then contacted an expert who told him the gun was okay. I am sure there are many sellers and experts who are happy to tell people what they want to hear.

You also told me you thought it made a difference knowing who was bidding on guns at auction...that if a knowledgeable collector was a bidder, that was a good sign. Well, I inspected about 30 items at the Morphy auction and only bid on the 2 I purchased. But I registered with them to call me on about a dozen items to bid, including the guns you bought, just to see what they went for and to keep the auction house from knowing what I wanted to buy. Any auction that would share information about who is registered to bid or inquiring about any auction, IMO, isn't anyone I'd consider a good source of information. They only do that kind of stuff to reel in guys with deep pockets and inflate sales prices.

I told you as a subscriber to my site, all you had to do was spend $35...just like all my other folks who order Online Opinions from me, and you could have saved yourself a bunch of time, trouble and embarrassment on NAA 5. You told me you thought I'd do a lot better not charging you. Apparently, you don't pay for the opinions you get, and so far, I'd say you've gotten your money's worth.

Remember NAA 5? You were sure that was original, too. Use who you want for an opinion and believe what you want. But don't be surprised if everyone doesn't agree. I will not bother to offer information on all the issues I see with this EXP 8. However, I am relatively confident at least some folks who view these boards see some of the same things I do.

[Johnny P]

Unless it is just the fuzzy photograph, the trigger sure looks like it is milled rather than stamped. US&S never used a milled trigger.

[gbethu]

Scott, sorry if our past has clouded your opinion of any gun I share with this forum. I don't sell pistols or advice so I have no dog in the fight with you. I know you want to be the 1911 Moses coming down from the Mountain and perhaps you should be...perhaps. You make your living selling yourself as an "expert". I just buy guns and share the photos with other collectors. When I make an error, like NAA #5, I thanked the forum for helping me and I was happy to have my money returned. You were, as you told me, the underbidder of the Singer I bought at Morphy's. I suspect you were after Colt #10 as well. Sorry.....That's the way auctions work. The opinion of the Colt .38 Super you mentioned was never of interest to me. The people at Morphy's thought you were wrong. I just told you that for your information only. You decided to share that with the many people here.

You asked me to pay you $20,000 to not interfere/block my purchase of Clawson's Singer. Clawson sold it to me in spite of what you said was a previous long term relationship (20+ years) with Chuck. Maybe that's why he decided to sell it to me. I know you're upset with that because you blocked my subscription on your site that I obtained from you when I purchased a $20,000 Navy 1911 you sold to me. Sad commentary.......

US&S No. 8 is a great, authenticated pistol. You really can't make a valid judgement call from the two photos I posted. Even you aren't Superman able to see through posted photos of guns. Hard to substitute your snap judgement from the 4 people who have owned the gun since 1975. they are all morons I'm sure. What was this gun worth in 1975 ? If you're going to fake something almost 40 years ago, why not pick something that was worth a lot at the time. It's only very recently this gun has traded over 10K. It is almost identical to the 5 others I inspected.

I think you need to take a moment to evaluate the harm a public tiff over a gun you've never seen can cause damage to your reputation. My reputation is intact and outside of buying pistols....you need the opinion of this arena much worse than I do..

I would like to be able to post photos of 1911s and share them with those that are interested. If someone has a question , then ask in a polite way. No one is going to share if a 'grand master" will denounce it as fake (or allege it as fake) because you didn't run it by them or buy their opinion. Make any observations you want. make them factual and discernible . Make the politely......it's what professionals do.

[Scott Gahimer]

Gordon:

I'll be brief. I did NOT bid on No. 10 because it had too many problems. I did not bid on the Singer because it sold for too much for a pistol in that condition with an incorrect magazine. If you suspect I bid on either of those pistols, that may make you feel better, but it is not the truth. I never bid on anything until the bidding is ready to close. I don't run prices up; I bid at the end. Once the pistol went north or $50K, I was not interested.

And to clarify. I suggested you pay me the same finder fee you pay others in exchange for me to decline buying the Singer. I still have the written sales contract signed by myself and CWC, acknowledging the price they (he and spouse) set, their acceptance of my $10K cash down payment and allowance of 60 days to pay the balance. When I took the full balance due to pick up the pistol, about 30 days later, Mr. Clawson did not honor the contract and raised the price by $65K. His wife showed him their signed copy of the agreement and tried to persuade him to honor it. We were told you'd been calling and e-mailing him 2-3 times a week, even after you were told he had already agreed to sell it to me.

So much for brevity.

Here is a photo of part of the purchase agreement.


When I called and told you about the purchase agreement, you told me I was his friend and that I wouldn't sue him. I agreed. You said others knew he and you had previously talked about you buying the Singer. I asked you if you thought some verbal or telephone agreement was better than my signed contract where money had exchanged hands. Then, you said Chuck Clawson ought to know that you were no one he wanted to mess with. You said when he told you he was selling me the pistol, you told told him he had a mess on his hands and he better clean that up. So I assumed raising the price by $65K was his way to do that. The pistol was worth what I agreed to pay for it, but no more. Originality and condition are what drive prices to knowledgeable collectors. Guns in the books are nice. I have nearly 40 of the guns shown in his books. But there are limits on everything, even on items are are 100% original.

Anyone who would threaten action against CWC for not selling a gun to him is no friend of mine. I opted to let the gun go, rather than expose my friend to any problems.

FYI, the reason you were deleted from my site as a subscriber is because you told me you'd phone me by noon the next day, and you didn't. You never followed-up. Instead, you rushed in to make the purchase and then post pictures of 39 and S800418. Was that gloating? I simply don't give free subscriptions to people who say one thing and do another.

Now, only because you know so much about US&S EXP pistols...let's see how long it is before others figure out what you just bought. BTW, the photos you provide are plenty good to see everything you need to know to draw conclusions about what this pistol is...or isn't.

I've already done the hard part, pointing out there are multiple issues with the pistol. You do not value my opinions, so let's let others look it over and offer their opinions.

[Scott Gahimer]

When I make an error, like NAA #5, I thanked the forum for helping me and I was happy to have my money returned.

Yes, this is how you thanked the gentleman who first broke the news to you that you had a problem on NAA 5. I'm starting to see a pattern here. BTW, you didn't only owe all those posted info a thank you, but you owed the one gentleman an apology.

Only after 5 pages of posts with multiple people devoting all kinds of time and posting all kinds of images did you finally acknowledge what many others knew from the moment you posted the images. Think about it, Gordon. I don't have any motive for posting any bad info for a pistol on the forum. I do depend on a reputation for knowing what I'm talking about and being able to back it up. Do you think I am the only one who has noticed what's wrong? I've received e-mails and phone calls, the same way I do when others post high profile pieces with problems.

From the NAA #5 thread, Gordon's way of saying thanks.

[Johnny P]

An original US&S stamped trigger in the bright blue finish.

[gbethu]

The receipt you purport is from Clawson is a matter between you and Clawson. He denies giving you one. You asked for me to pay you $20,000 to "go away". Who does something like that ? Bribes are always wrong..
You cancelled a subscription that was paid for with a Navy 1911 I purchased from you for $20,000. It was what I bought with the pistol....certainly wasn't free.
Leave your frustrations about not winning Colt #39 and the Singer S800418 out of any opinion of me or any gun I may post here. I now see why so many collectors have so little respect for you. While you seem to have good technical knowledge about the 1911, your general lack of business ethics are widely known to be severely lacking. You will certainly loose more business with this public display. I have often been told by many to "be careful" when dealing with you. Good advice

You personally told me you bid on the auction Singer that I won because you didn't want me to get it "too cheap". My bet is you didn't win #10 or the Singer is, because like Clawson's guns, you couldn't afford them.

I apologized to milgunsguy for my tone in that post in a private message and we now correspond regularly via email. I always apologize when I'm wrong. You might learn to do the same one day.


gordon

[Scott Gahimer]

Gordon:

In my first post, I told you the same thing I'd tell anyone who purchased such a pistol. Anyone with basic knowledge of US&S M1911A1 pistols, a few good reference books and access to the Internet should be able to look at the photos you posted and see multiple issues with this pistol. Looking at multiple known original pistols is basic to learning. Anytime someone is going to purchase one of the most widely faked examples, he should also specifically study the known original examples of those pistols, too. Because the EXP has been documented with two different surface preparations (but still the exact same Du-Lite blue finish), and because fakes abound, one should also seek out an expert who is familiar with the US&S pistols, but also well-versed with other manufacturers so he can spot and identify all the incorrect parts. It's one thing to think something doesn't look right, and another to know it's not right because you can identify what the part is. Additionally, a real expert should also be able to spot inconsistencies that come with mismatched parts.

Additionally, I asked you if you had a return policy on the pistol...another appropriate question because, if you did, most sellers require buyers to promptly return items for refund. Because you purchased the pistol, it was obvious you and/or your "experts" did not see all the non-US&S parts and other inconsistencies. So there was very little point in trying to explain all the things wrong, nor what I considered the time to have a 5-page NAA #5 type thread to give you a warm, fuzzy feeling while we held your hand, posted numerous photos of original pistols for comparison, so we could finally get you and/or your "experts" to the point of seeing the difference in US&S manufacture parts and parts manufactured by other makers.

And to prove my point that it would not have done any good, you did not reply asking what things I saw with the pistol that caused me to ask if you had a return policy. No, instead, you accused me of being pissed at you and trying to get even. You made it a point to try to discredit what I was saying by attacking my character. I suppose if you don't know anything about the pistol, it's a lot easier to attack the messenger. I normally attempt to keep my posts about the pistols, rather than the people, but you made that pretty well impossible this time. You wanted to talk about everything except the pistol. So fine, we've done that and people can believe what they want. And you still have the same pistol issues with EXP 8.

Johnny Peppers has already started the ball rolling identifying a trigger that was never used in US&S production. What about all the other small parts that are discernible in your photos. All anyone has to do is save the images, brighten them up and enlarge them, and there are plenty of other things that are not US&S, not correct for this specific variation or not properly prepared for an original EXP pistol. I'd suggest just going part-by-part, comparing them to known examples. Anyone with basic knowledge and observation skills should be able to do it.

[ignats]

Am I looking at a Sistema trigger? They're close in appearance to Colt milled triggers but when placed side by side are slightly different. I know that Sistemas were/are a platform for fakes due their being machined closely to Colt specifications and relatively inexpensive to come by or at least used to be.

Let's talk more about the gun; that's the important thing. If we can educate ourselves and track down the fakers or at least expose their work then that's what needs to be done.

[gbethu]

Scott. I prefer to do business with dealers that don't have their own agenda. Your reputation precedes you in this regard. I'm sure the many readers on this page recognize your behavior. You can keep the "I just want to help" charade. Where this true, you would have approached the subject very differently.

I managed to acquire one of the finest wrist watch collections in the world over twenty years with the help of multiple experts. Many I purchased from or many just offered their opinion on other watches. A large portion was sold at Christies in December 2012. 3 world records were set.

http://www.christies.com/Important-Watches-23590.aspx

As the auction results show, I can't be all that uninformed in acquiring desirable items for my collection.

While I don't have very much money in this pistol, I did receive advice from experts other than you. It's almost like looking at your web site photo then meeting you in person. No correlation what so ever. If two people described you, which would be correct. Well, they both would, wouldn't they? You are kind of like a one eye Jack....I've seen the other side of your face.

To date, no one has shown up with another US&S No 8. Maybe you have one with that serial number ????
I'll get my advice else where. Thank you.

[Scott Gahimer]

Ignats, thanks. I was sure there were others interested in what this pistol is. Sistema? I'm not sure about that. Additional macro views of the trigger would probably be required to say. But, based on the brightened image Johnny posted in post #6, I think there is no doubt whatsoever the trigger is milled. Johnny also posted an excellent image of an original US&S stamped trigger in post #10. Here is the brightened image of the trigger in Gordo's pistol and a couple images of original US&S triggers I'll furnish. Does anyone see a difference?
Gordon's trigger (photo from post 6)


Triggers from 2 different original US&S pistols. Compare these two images to Johnny's trigger in post 10 and Gordon's trigger shown here and in post 6.