US&S EXP No 8

[Scott Gahimer]

Let's move on to the hammer. While Gordon's photos don't show checkering pattern, they do clearly show the side profile of the hammer well enough to determine what it is. Here are cropped images of Gordon's to show both sides, so there is no mistake about what we're seeing.



Here are left and right side views of an original US&S hammer from the same pistol. If you have images of what you believe are original US&S hammers, please post them. I checked all 20+ US&S pistols I show in my Gallery. They all had identical hammers to these I show below.



See any similarities? I don't. However, I am relatively sure I know what original pistols have hammers like the one shown in Gordon's pistol. But I won't post images of those pistols until others have had a chance to examine the hammers, comment or post their own images for comparison.

[Promo]

Gordon, I have always appreciated the pictures of guns I will never be able to pay for, therefore I always enjoy looking at your threads. Reading this, I understood that there is a personal problem between you and Scott Gahimer. We're all humans and have similar problems with other guys, probably some which are not on the board, but that is not something uncommon. However, I do not want to interfere in this topic.

What I wanted to say (while I of course need to mention that I'm definately not the guy who is able to tell you whether this pistol is legit or not, but others might be) was that there are plenty of persons here who would be willing to give you their opinion upon your pistol, and help you to confirm if it's original or not. All you need to do is upload a few more pictures of your pistol, showing a few details like the trigger, the markings, the hammer and other distinctive details of any M1911(A1) pistol. If you don't want to, that is fine aswell, however the opportunity is that you will also get other opinions from guys here who also have knowledge. And you're anyway free to believe whoever you want to believe.

So I'd really be looking forward to see more of this pistol! Please upload some pictures!

[Tommy2guns]

New here....

Gentleman pardon my intrusion in your conversation or boxing match. I am new to the forum but not to collecting pistols. I have always looked to this page and several others of the same type for knowledge I may be lacking about a particular genre of firearm.

I have never felt this type of sparring is good for anything when it is apparently coming from a place of anger or emotion. Whatever the root of this negativity is, it makes the original subject completely left in the dust.

I don't know either of you gentlemen and have never bought, sold or had trade with you either. The only reason I am making this post is the fact that I have had first hand knowledge of three known examples of the US&S EXP specimens out of the reported 100+/- pistols produced by US&S.

These are not pistols I hawked photos off of the internet to show off on my facebook page or personal website. I held these guns in my hands and had the opportunity to break them down for closer exam, study and photograph them.

One of these examples, SN99 was the gun that sold at Morphys Auction in January for an estimate $16k with auction fees. I was not at the auction on sale day but did preview the gun a week earlier. I did not bid on the gun as I was not looking to buy one but while I was killing time in the auction house I asked to examine it. In my novice collector opinion I felt that example was legit. Obviously someone else thought so as well to a nice sum over $15,000.

Another was SN36 which I had the option to examine prior to a public sale of it for the first time of two times it went up for auction in the past 10 years. It is the only example I have seen that had an embossed US&S factory tag with the serial number stamped on it.

The third was SN87 and at the time it was in a collection with two others in Jackson, Mississippi. Two of which were polished blue finish and the other was the duller, utilitarian finish of the production models. I did spend much time in the comparison between the other two at such a degree to make any strong declarations about it.

The reason I am adding to this post is that I find it extremely hard to believe that anyone of us has had the opportunity to examine all of the roughly 100 pistols assumed to exist or existed at one time. If we are lucky then maybe any of us could have possibly seen a third of them both in person as well as mixed in known photos. That leaves maybe 60-70 or better to not be able to study. You ever go to an English Lit exam on a novel that you only read the table of contents and expect to get an "A" on it?

With all of that said let's move on to the guy that wrote the book on it. None of which I see coming to anyone's aid here and I think for good reason. You ever consider that you both could be right or both be wrong?

Meadows writes at a greater length about these guns and clearly states that some, not all triggers, barrel bushing, lanyard loop, recoil spring guide, spring plug, slide stop were purchased from outside contractors. Take that short list along with the remainder of semi finished parts coming from other sources screams of variation between these guns.

Anyone here who takes issue with these comments should put earplugs in, shut out all the noise being made by big egos and opinions and read the full text of information from these two scholars of the 1911! Whenever something is put in a reference text that bolsters your claim you are more than happy to point it out. When it contradicts your claims then you ignore it! Can't always have it both ways guys.

I guess the last thing that seems to elude so many people on the subject of antique or collectible arms in general is the fact that people have owned these guns for years. Some people inherit guns or obtain them all on their own without knowing or understanding what changing out a worn out or inoperable part that may have been original to a better looking or operable part that is technically not correct for a particular gun.

Some people see what the majority of us call patina and honest wear and tear on an item and decide it's not "pretty" so they send it off to a Turnbull or the like and spend thousands of dollars, loosing thousands of dollars making their gun "pretty". Does that mean there is any trace of fraudulent intent? No, just means they wanted it their way, stupid as that may be it is not always done with malicious intent.

If the guy who owns this gun was trying to sell it to any of us and we think there is a problem with it then we can either point it out or walk away. If it is not for sale and they are happy with it then why trash talk it?

I use to collect civil war items of all make and manner. After getting out in the market and going to the shows and swap meets I became overwhelmed with all the unsolicited opinions about my collection and have never seen so many people set themselves up as the SELF APPOINTED MAN IN CHARGE of all things confederate, etc..

Let's call this jerk "John". I had been digging around thru all these collections and offerings and acquiring all manner of neat stuff I was completely content in owning. Had no intention of selling any of it. If I displayed an item online or at a show and low and behold along came John.

John would stand there and detract everything he could think of to kill the value of the item along with any respect I may have started off having for him. After his initial bashing of the item, he would turn right around and either make an offer to buy it, ask me how much I wanted for it or offer to write an opinion to go along with my item that would help increase the value for my not so good item or try and sell me his to go with mine!

Sure does seem that something like that goes on a lot in regards to these same circles.

I apologize for the long winded first post here and I hope to be more brief in the future.

[KeithNyst]

FYIW, EXP #1 is up in the May RIA Auction: http://www.rockislandauction.com/vie...id/52/lid/3751

[Johnny P]

"Meadows writes at a greater length about these guns and clearly states that some, not all triggers, barrel bushing, lanyard loop, recoil spring guide, spring plug, slide stop were purchased from outside contractors. Take that short list along with the remainder of semi finished parts coming from other sources screams of variation between these guns".



That is somewhat taking Meadows out of context. The trigger has been mentioned as a part that is incorrect. If you read Meadows he explains:

"Yawman Metal Products of Rochester, New York, a subsidary of the Meyer Tool & Die Co. of New York, produced many of the small component parts, including the stamped trigger."

While Meadows indicates that US&S bought various parts from various suppliers, he did not say US&S bought various triggers from various suppliers. If you read far enough in Meadows he explains that Yawman produced all the stamped triggers for the four contractors.

[ignats]

Did anyone else besides Colt (and after WWII - DGFM - Sistema) make milled triggers? I can't think of any other manufacturers during that era that did make them. Oops, left out Singer.

[Scott Gahimer]

Yes, Remington Rand had milled triggers up to about the 927xxx serial range. However, US&S never used a milled trigger.

[Johnny P]

FYIW, EXP #1 is up in the May RIA Auction: http://www.rockislandauction.com/vie...id/52/lid/3751

An interesting comparison pistol. It has the type of hammer and trigger that you would expect to find on a US&S, as well as the contour of the machining you would find on a US&S receiver.

[anton67]

Oh boy, here we go again . . . . . .maybe.

[Scott Gahimer]

EXP 1 also has a proper US&S M1911A1 thumb safety, the proper late Keyes Fibre style stocks. For those who don't know it, the EXP were late production pistols, many of which were made with rejected receivers. US&S had depleted no ring stocks before these pistols were made.

Gordon's pistol has a M1911 thumb safety! Notice the thin thumb piece and ridge around it.


Original US&S thumb safeties are entirely different. Here's one example...plenty more photos available. Notice the coverage difference on the hammer pins.


Back to the issue of the hammer in Gordon's gun. That hammer didn't even exist when the EXP pistols were made. Here are a few of the same hammers...all in 1944 Colts. BTW, Johnny, is the arrow pointing to the "contour in the machining" you mention? If so, I have photos of about 20 original US&S pistols. They all have like contours in their machining. See images.

The 1944 Colt hammers...same as in Gordon's gun.





Here is Gordon's contour in the grip tang


Here is what original US&S production grip tangs look like.



You can compare these grip tangs to the one on EXP 1 at the RIAC site http://www.rockislandauction.com/vie...id/52/lid/3751 You'll see they are the same.

And just think, we were able to see all these issues with just the iffy pictures Gordon posted. I wonder what hie and his experts were looking at?

[anton67]

We are not up to post 50 yet

[Scott Gahimer]

We are not up to post 50 yet

No need to stretch it out any longer. Gordon is a grown up. He can handle it.

So what is the receiver on EXP 8? Well, looking at a lot of original pistols, makes that a little easier to determine. Every manufacturer's grip tangs were slightly different, and varied slightly in different serial ranges. Sadly, US&S NEVER produced a receiver with the grip tang that is shown on Gordon's gun. Colt's were sorta similar. But, the only M1911A1 manufacturer who produced receivers with the exact same grip tang and pin placement as what is on EXP 8 (that I've been able to find...looking at a lot of pistols) was Remington Rand, in the 1.3M to 1.5M serial range. Here are a few examples:





Unless anyone believes US&S used Remington Rand receivers that were not manufactured until 1944 in their EXP pistols, it appears EXP 8 has been scrubbed of Remington Rand markings...probably including the serial number...and that creates an issue about the legality of even possessing it. Hmmm? I wonder what that means about all that provenance back to 1975?

[Johnny P]

US&S Navy issue with the typical US&S contour.

[anton67]

I personally would not have noticed any of these issues.
Then again, I would not have spent a small fortune on any gun without doing my research or consulting someone who knew his stuff.
All I can say is . . . . Doh boy.

And BTW, a gun with altered serial numbers would likely be illegal to own in my state.

[ignats]

I personally would not have noticed any of these issues.
Then again, I would not have spent a small fortune on any gun without doing my research or consulting someone who knew his stuff.
All I can say is . . . . Doh boy.

And BTW, a gun with altered serial numbers would likely be illegal to own in my state.

Which is why it's a good idea to read the posts here, observe and record serial number ranges etc etc.

It's a federal crime to possess a firearm that has an altered or removed firearm. From National Firearms Act of 1934

Criminal conduct

The Act makes certain conduct a criminal offense, in relation to engaging in business as a manufacturer, importer, or dealer with respect to (NFA) firearms without having registered or paid a Special Occupational Tax (SOT); receiving or possessing a firearm transferred to oneself in violation of the NFA; receiving or possessing a firearm made in violation of the NFA; receiving or possessing a firearm not registered to oneself in the National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record; transferring or making a firearm in violation of the NFA; or obliterating, removing, changing, or altering the serial number of the firearm.

Criminal penalties

Violations of the Act are punishable by up to 10 years in federal prison and forfeiture of all devices or firearms in violation, and the individual's right to own or possess firearms in the future. The Act provides for a penalty of $10,000 for certain violations. A willful attempt to evade or defeat a tax imposed by the Act is a felony punishable by up to five years in prison and a $100,000 fine ($500,000 in the case of a corporation or trust), under the general tax evasion statute. For an individual, the felony fine of $100,000 for tax evasion could be increased to $250,000.