US&S EXP No 8

[gbethu]

Scott, I believe you have made some good points. I guess it's a question of how you do it and your less than ethical approach to collecting. If you are correct, I may be out about 7000 dollars. Chump change compared to the 2 or 3 hundred thousand I've made on guns you could only wish you owned. I may ask for my money back but I think there is enough right about number 8 when compared side by side with other EXP examples that I'll keep it. No matter, right or wrong, I'm just fine with it. I like the gun.

What will be interesting is to speculate how often your phone doesn't ring with new business. While I know you sometimes sleep overnight in your car (like when I met you in Pa.), and sell pistols from a hand bag ( without an FFL), the silence might be hard on you ( Don't worry you're a big boy, you can take it). You've shown many people how small minded and petty you can be and the real person you are. While I had to swallow my gaul when I sent you twenty thousand dollars to buy a Navy pistol from you recently ( remember how you said you cut out offering it to your subscribers first to sell it to me), it will never happen again . I wouldn't buy serial number one from you. Bet your subscribers don't know you frequently don't offer your best new guns to them.

All in all, this has been a good lesson for me. My bet it is for the forum readers as well.
No one will ever know the number of calls you never receive after today.

You do a good job imparting your knowledge to others. I'll try to share my knowledge as well.
Hope your knee is getting better every day.

[Jay Johnson]

I gotta say, this thread and the thread on NAA #5 are fascinating reads, they're also maddening in regards to the extent the fakers will go to pull off their con job.

[KeithNyst]

Take all the personal stuff aside ... and what is left in both NAA#5 and EXP #8 threads is a fascinating learning experience. I do not have a local technical mentor; I find this "autopsy" approach extremely helpful to my learning.

[Scott Gahimer]

I gotta say, this thread and the thread on NAA #5 are fascinating reads, they're also maddening in regards to the extent the fakers will go to pull off their con job.

The only way to overcome fakery, regardless of how poor or good, is to arm yourself with real knowledge through experience. Money doesn't buy either. You have to either do the work or work with someone who has. Happy collecting to those committed to learning.

[Scott Gahimer]

Take all the personal stuff aside ... and what is left in both NAA#5 and EXP #8 threads is a fascinating learning experience. I do not have a local technical mentor; I find this "autopsy" approach extremely helpful to my learning.

The personal attacks are often the cost associated with providing that good learning experience for the readers. Sorting through the facts and fiction shouldn't be too difficult for anyone wanting to learn..

[Tommy2guns]

Hey guys are we gonna drive the short bus to gun school again today? Probably should. I want to point out something to some of you if you can follow and understand the hypothetical here.

Imagine you have a horrible condition any brand made 1911 with deep pitting and weak or thin markings along with a ton of rust. Could have all original parts or some aftermarket grips or pins, hammer, trigger, etc...wrong mainspring housing whatever. You send this pile of manure off to Turnbull or the fellow Steve Moeller to restore to as mint as possible with the best of their ability and skill.

They take your pile of scrap in for a few months and charge $3-4k to restore it. They sand and file and polish away all those crappy illegible markings from frame to slide. They resurface the parts and try and sharpen and clean up the round edges thereby removing metal and possible distorting the original lines the gun had when first made. They replace most of the little parts, pins, screws etc..with good close modern repro parts that are sharp and clean and bring the overall picture of the gun back up to close original as possible.

You pay them the$3-4k to them for doing this so you will have a museum quality condition pistol to look at and play with in the mirror every night like you are the Lone Ranger or Elliot Ness. You are happy with it as it is now "pretty" again.

With a scenario like that one is it possible that all that sanding, filing and polishing to make the slight very subtle changes we see here on this EXP No 8? Does that make it fake? No. Does that make it illegal? No. Does that kill the collector value? Yeap....

If you don't think Turnbull restores some of these old guns and replace a lot of the little parts with modern repro parts that are made to be as close to the original as possible then you should go check out their website. They have a gallery of before and after photos.

They are not the only ones around that does that same thing everyday and it's legal. It's a bunch of bs and ignorant on the part of the owner of the gun but they can do it without asking any of us for our permission. I never had it done but I bought one last year for $2500 and the idiot I bought it from paid $4500 to have them ruin the value and help him loose an additional two grand.

[Andouille]

Straight up, I am not a high end collector of anything, and have absolutely no dog in this fight. My "collection" would almost certainly be called an "accumulation" of "daily drivers", as they'd say in the collector car world. Whilst I probably have the wherewithal to amass a reasonably decent collection of high-end M1911's, I suffer from lacking the time, interest and emotional attachment for the pursuit of that kind of excellence, especially considering the committment to fakery that seems rampant in any/all subset(s) of firearms collecting.

Those are my shortcomings, and more power to those who keep their eyes on the prize.

But here's the deal: Any pistol sent off to Turnbull or anybody else, for the aforementioned sanding, filing, polishing, miscellaneous replacement of small parts, re-engraving of markings and whatnot, I believe they call this "restoration", is fine and good and certainly nice to look at, when represented as such. But when that gun is later represented as an original pistol, that misrepresentation would convert the restoration into a fake.

The misrepresentation may be inadvertant thru ignorance, but it's still a fake in my somewhat narrow-minded world-view. Restoration work sure as shootin' ain't original. This having been said thru some past experience in getting into, and subsequently out of, several different types of collector firearms. Keep one hand on your wallet at all times, gentlemen, and your other two hands on your genitals.

I appologize in advance if I've ruffled anybody's feathers by intruding into a space I really don't belong in, and will now remove myself from the discussion, whilst not allowing the screen door to smack me in the behind as I exit.

[anton67]

Sounds like somebody has more money than brains.

[Scott Gahimer]

With a scenario like that one is it possible that all that sanding, filing and polishing to make the slight very subtle changes we see here on this EXP No 8? Does that make it fake? No. Does that make it illegal? No. Does that kill the collector value? Yeap....

With all due respect, your hypothesis is flawed. Sanding, filing, polishing, etc. will only remove metal. It will not completely alter the grip tang by making it larger and adding metal. Nor can you over some the pin position issue in the grip tang area of M1911 and M1911A1 pistols.

The chances of a genuine US&S receiver being altered through restoration to the point the grip tang metal grows and pin holes are relocated is beyond calculating. I suspect it would be easier to stretch a VW out into a Park Avenue.

[vpi]

Wow! Where is the love for Turnbull? Though I agree that there are many pitfalls in the restoration nation, there is a place in the world for Turnbull. I have a very rare 1911 with ALL the parts that came with it from the factory. Its condition however is deplorable. Much of the finish gone, the original diamond stocks worn almost smooth, file marks where someone tried to remove the serial # but didn't succeed, the serial # electropenciled four places on the frame and two other parts, the bore pretty much shot out, etc. Little to no collector value. I could use it as a shooter or parts it out for a great deal of money. But because it is such a rare variant and and every part is original to the pistol, I choose to have Turnbull restore it. Years from now when Turnbull is long gone will his restorations have their own place in the collecting world? I have an Ithaca 1911a1 purchased through the NRA in 1962 for $17.50 with the original paper work. It is original and correct in excellent condition with the parkerized feed ramp anomaly. Very few in 1962 thought that 50 years later it would be a very collectible pistol worth maybe north of two grand. Something to think about.

[Johnny P]

I can't think of any restoration from the past that has become collectible today. If you like Turnbull restorations that is fine, but just don't expect them to ever become collectible because they are a "Turnbull". Colt Walkers typically come in well worn condition, but how many owners would opt for a restoration.

Among Sharps rifles one of the most desirable is a "Fort Griffin" shipped rifle. Fort Griffin, Texas was in the middle of buffalo country, and any Sharps shipped there wasn't used for Sunday evening target shooting. They were bought by buffalo hunters, and were just one of the hunters tools. They are found in very used and worn out condition, but command high prices because their history is known, not because they really look nice.

The late Bill Adair told of putting serial numbers on 1911 receivers that had no serial number. He simply used the serial number requested by the customer. How much history is that?

[anton67]

Am I missing something here?
Gordon posts his latest and greatest gun.
The way I understand it, Scott tells him that there may be issues with the gun (apparently for the second time now).
Instead of saying, "Thank you Scott for pointing out the issues", Gordon proceeds to personally attack Scott.
He braggs that this $7000 is just a dime in the bucket to him.
And after all that, in the end, he FINALLY states that he may return the pistol?
Maybe Gordon should do more research before he throws money at people.

[Tommy2guns]

Lesson learned and point taken. There are pieces out there that come into the market everyday via online auction sites, gun shows, trade groups and forums like this as well as the big and small auction houses. Reputable auction houses offer no strings attached refunds for questionable or problem items sold thru them. A good dealer will offer a refund if presented with the same situation. Individuals that sell on ebay or other auction sites have the ability to decline refunding your money, albeit bad and unscrupulous to do so. It is all in how someone handles this type of situation that speaks of their character that point forward.

I read something Jim Supica wrote somewhere about these type of situations and it is all too true. Like it or not, if you buy a bogus item the only person you can blame is yourself. It is your wallet and your responsibility to make educated decisions related to what is in it.

Keep your powder dry and your fuses handy.

[anton67]

IN RESPONSE TO: It is all in how someone handles this type of situation that speaks of their character that point forward.

Well I don't think bashing the messenger and telling everybody that you are soo rich that it really is not a big deal says much about someones character.

[da gimp]

At a nationally advertised auction several years ago there happened to be an antique Winchester lever that the seller was saying was factory original case colors & bluing............... Someone called Doug Turnbull up, gave him the model number & the serial number & asked if Doug had restored that rifle............... Long story made short, they told Doug where it was & got him photos of it...... Doug called the auction house & told them that he had restored that particular rifle, & had given it back to the customer with a written list of everything that they had done to it, while the restoration was underway...............It was my understanding that the rifle was pulled from the sale.