A further "pointed" look at my 1895 Winchester-Lee

[11mm]

These were purported to be original drawings of the Navy LeeLee1.jpglee2.jpg

I got them as sort of gift from the dealer from whom I bought my Lee.

These are what we called reproducibles where I used to work, though they are not the plastic we used to use, of course.

They are in such good shape that I doubt they are originals. One is in two colors of "ink" though.

The nomenclature is really interesting, as that must have been what Winchester called the 1895 rifle. "Lee Rifle US Navy Small Arm"

[butlersrangers]

Love those Lees, especially the model 1899, 'Michigan contract' one.

(Photos - #1 & 2 - Michigan Naval Militia with Navy Remington-Lee rifles, Detroit - Campus Martius, Memorial Day 1895.

#3 & #4 - Michigan State Troops at Manistee, Michigan, for annual training in 1900. My great uncle is in photo. NCOs have Krag equipment).


Det-sailors-1895-e1a.jpgDet-sailors-1895-e5.jpgMST-1900-Manistee.jpgMNG-edit.jpg

[Rick the Librarian]

Beautiful collection, 5Mad! According to the book, some bayonets had just the Manufacturer's stamp, some had just the serial number, some had the ordnance proof stamp and some had a combination of all or none! I never even though to look for a serial number until I read the book. I'm "conditioned" to look for markings just on the blade and crosspiece!

I've heard of people fashioning cartridges for Winchester-Lees from various other cartridges, but just "petting the rifle (and now bayonet) is good enough for me.

[5MadFarmers]

The nomenclature is really interesting, as that must have been what Winchester called the 1895 rifle. "Lee Rifle US Navy Small Arm"

Very interesting. Perhaps due to the way the navy program ran. They picked a caliber and then asked Winchester and P&W if it was viable from what I recall. Ergo Winchester was sucked in.

Love those Lees, especially the model 1899, 'Michigan contract' one.

"Model 1899" is a spurious designation. Yes, I know Gene and Marcot use it. It's still spurious. That the last patent on them is from the 1880s, that the serial numbers on the Michigan guns are over 100K, that the army reviewed them in 1898, and that they are listed in magazines for sale in 1897 and earlier kind of buries that term. It's spurious. They're just the "Remington-Lee Magazine Rifle." More specifically, the "Remington-Lee Military Rifle." Which distinguishes from the sporting one. Remington's terms.

NCOs have Krag equipment.

Whereas Michigan paid for the Remington-Lee rifles, they still received equipment via the "arming and equipping the militia" program. Thus they were sent Krag rifles.

Some things are purchased on "belief" and some not so much. Do you believe that the Navy marked all their rifles the same? Those on the USS Kearsarge received "USS Kearsarge" paint and thus all the rest did? Were they that consistent or was there inconsistency? Some believe in that rigid consistency. Some do not. In four days and 19 hours two rifles will be going in an auction at Rock Island Auctions. Lot 210. The first of the two is a Remington-Lee in the correct range for the Michigan buy. Doesn't appear to have the butt stock number most seem to have. Which means it'll go cheaper. Those that insist on that number being present won't be that interested. Only those that even notice it will be interested. Comes with a pedestrian trapdoor. That will be a good lot. A Remington-Lee in the Michigan range. Cheap. Whether that's interesting or not depends on the person. Myself? I have one. If I didn't I'd probably buy that one.

Beautiful collection, 5Mad! According to the book, some bayonets had just the Manufacturer's stamp, some had just the serial number, some had the ordnance proof stamp and some had a combination of all or none! I never even though to look for a serial number until I read the book. I'm "conditioned" to look for markings just on the blade and crosspiece!

Thanks. In theory, during WW2, issue of a meat can, knife, fork, and spoon enabled soldiers to have mess gear in the field. In practice they tossed everything but the spoon. In theory the Blish locking system was needed by the Thompson SMG. In practice it didn't really do anything.

In theory issue of a rifle and bayonet with the same number would preclude theft of bayonets and rifles. Lost your bayonet? Steal somebody else's. In practice it's not harder to write two numbers on an issue sheet.
In theory a rifle made to industrial standards by one company, and bayonets made to industrial standards by another company, should result in not all bayonets fitting all rifles. "Stamp them." That combination fits. In practice you'd likely have to look long and hard to find a pair which doesn't match up. In theory a mandrel could be used to widen the bayonet. In practice that likely set a record for the tool in an armorer's tool chest least used.

So, no, I guess I'm not surprised that somebody came up with the idea of numbering them. That's the kind of theory that troops specialize in ignoring.

[Rick the Librarian]

Along the same line, something I've always wondered had the Pedersen Device been used in combat (yes, another rabbit trail!). With a pouch for the PD, another pouch for the rifle bolt and yet another for the PD magazines, I wonder how long it would have been before at least one (and maybe more than one!) was "accidentally lost".

[5MadFarmers]

Along the same line, something I've always wondered had the Pedersen Device been used in combat (yes, another rabbit trail!). With a pouch for the PD, another pouch for the rifle bolt and yet another for the PD magazines, I wonder how long it would have been before at least one (and maybe more than one!) was "accidentally lost".

Oiler in butt. Little thong with a string cord. Attach brush, pull through. Cord breaks with brush half-way up barrel. "How do I get this out?" "Use a sectional cleaning rod." "If I had a sectional cleaning rod why would I be using this stupid gimpy thong?" Aw, that stupid gimpy thong is for use when you're isolated and the sectional rod isn't available. Which is a fine time for that cord to break. If I was out in the middle of nowhere with the rifle and worried about cleaning the barrel, having that thong but no real rod, I'd piss down the barrel and call it a day. "Handle a pissy rifle?" A pissy rifle is better than a clean rifle with a brush half-way down the barrel.

Items developed by the gimmick brigade. Their biggest desire in life is to design stuff for Inspector Gadget or James Bond. Instead they discover that field doesn't exist and design kitchen stuff. A device that half and orange is placed on and pressed to extract the juice. Yeah, I'd find myself using that daily....

The M17 gas mask and the canteen for it mated up. M17A1 or M17A2 anyway. Ok, time to recall. M17 was plain. M17A1 permitted filter changes on the fly without removing the mask. M17A2 added the canteen thing. From what I remember. The mother of all military gimmicks. The gas mask/canteen connection system. How do you clean the connections of toxins before plugging them together? Um, don't know. If I reached the point where I was going to be wearing the mask so long that I absolutely needed a drink I'd swab and IV needle and poke it through the clothing. Why? Because I'd die of frustration trying to connect that stupid canteen to the stupid mask with gloves on.

[Dan Shapiro]

Oh! Another gadget! Or was it rabbit?

In the late 60's while in the army, they encouraged a program where folks who actually did the work would make suggestions that would reduce cost and increase efficiency. There actually were a couple good one's made. Ergo, it came down from above that the suggestions would now be mandatory....and each work unit would submit at least one suggestion per month.

Break away for a moment to listen to what I once heard one officer tell another: 'The enlisted man is generally amoral, devious, lazy and bears watching at all times.'

Two of the suggestions made after the mandatory order came down:
1) Plastic extensions for pencils. You can only sharpen a pencil so many times, then can no longer grasp it. The extension would allow full use of the pencil.
2) Openings on both ends of the duffel bag (aka sea bag). Because what you want or need is always on the bottom.

For some reason those suggestions were not implemented. After a couple more months, the program "disappeared".

[Kaliman]

Rick, you seem to have come into a Lee-Navy recently as have I. Mine is a tad earlier though, S/N 205

[Rick the Librarian]

Yep, mine couldn't be any farther away - 19,909!

[Dan Shapiro]

7730 here.

[Kragrifle]

With a SN that high that should be a civilian musket.

[Rick the Librarian]

According to Eugene M., most of the civilian Lees were interspersed in the 10,000-15,000 range. Those from 15,000 to 20,000 were the second contract of rifles to the Navy and Marines.

[jon_norstog]

Here's some comments etc. regarding the Lee Navy rifle and the fights it was prominently used in. From the Spanish-American War website:

http://www.spanamwar.com/lee.htm

A Marine's letter home after the landing at Guantanamo

http://www.spanamwar.com/wisconsinmarine.htm

Lt. Baptiste surrendered in part because he and his men thought the Marines had machine guns

http://www.spanamwar.com/leearticle.htm

Stephen Crane (Red Badge of Courage) was a war correspondent with the Marines. Here's his dispatch from the fight at Cuzco Wells

http://www.spanamwar.com/cranequickaccount.htm

jn

[Dan Shapiro]

Thanks for the links. Interesting!

[5MadFarmers]

Pitiful. Just pitiful.

"OSHKOSH BOY IN CUBA - EXCITING EPISTLE RECEIVED FROM OSHKOSH SOLDIER IN BATTLE"

The Shakey's was at least inexpensive. While there is a Golden Corral there it's not inexpensive. I blame the air show. I never stop to eat in Oshkosh.

In some cases the Cubans, who have never seen the rifle before, lost the blocks entirely and then threw the arms away, disgusted with them. It was noticible that the Cubans reported a much larger percentage of disabled pieces than the marines.

I'll be honest - that disqualifies the gun from military service as it stood. It had some very good points but a gun in military service shouldn't be a "but" gun.

"The M16 works fine but it does require proper cleaning to function."

That's a but. There should be no buts. It should work regardless.

The Navy Lee performed admirably in the hands of the Marines.

They found that many of the complaints were groundless, the men, who in the heat of action, having neglected to take the proper measures to work the arm.

Pull trigger, bang. The more that doesn't happen for any reason the more work which should be done to make that so.

Conversely most new weapons have teething problems that need to be worked out. That one didn't get the chance. Gas trap M1 anyone? Bueller? Bueller?

M16? "Enough is enough, put a piston in the stupid thing."