this really broke my bubble with the M14 even MORE!

[Griff Murphey]

They always loaded us down with manuals in ROTC in high school and college. We had 22-5 Drill and Ceremonies, individual weapons and marksmanship which was a pretty good general compilation that I think was number 145, had a gray cover. In high school I remember a manual on combat which advised freezing in the light of a bursting flare and the art showed a British style "tin 'at" helmet. In college the Logistics manual was sought after as it had an example of the Army drivers' license. San Antonio was a military town and there were a lot of college girls carrying Army drivers' licenses and who would have thought them 'lil gals could drive M-60 tanks?

[Art]

Griff, the only manuals I ever saw before I got to Korea were on the Nike Hercules missile.

[PhillipM]

Art, so when your M14 froze in the rain, it had no grease?

[Art]

Art, so when your M14 froze in the rain, it had no grease?

Yup. it was only lubed with the equivalent of 3 in 1 oil. I never saw rifle grease while I was in the Army; in fact I never knew rifle grease existed until I was middle aged. The malfunction would almost surely have been prevented by rifle grease and incidents like mine are the reason rifle grease was issued for the M1 early in its career. The Garand action should absolutely be greased in most circumstances and always in the wet. Fortunately it only happened to me in training!!!

[PhillipM]

Yup. it was only lubed with the equivalent of 3 in 1 oil. I never saw rifle grease while I was in the Army; in fact I never knew rifle grease existed until I was middle aged. The malfunction would almost surely have been prevented by rifle grease and incidents like mine are the reason rifle grease was issued for the M1 early in its career. The Garand action should absolutely be greased in most circumstances and always in the wet. Fortunately it only happened to me in training!!!

I spoke with a West Point graduate who when he was a cadet in 1966 ish had his M14 hang up due to lack of maintenance. He was color guard, so his rifle was never inspected, so he never cleaned it. He had never heard of grease either till I brought it up.

[13Echo]

Maybe artillery was different but we oiled and greased our rifles. In winter in Germany we stripped the grease for really cold weather. The grease points were about the same as for the M1 except for the roller which the TM said should be oiled and the op rod cam recess was not greased. I tend to use more grease on my M1a than I did on my M14, perhaps because I've been shooting an M1 Garand a lot. I'm especially anal about the roller. Why the TM didn't want it greased I do not know but mine gets greased.

Jerry Liles

[StockDoc]

I heard that is real dusty climates the M14 is also run dry with no problems.

[13Echo]

Tropical, temperate, and wet climates - Grease!

Very cold - run dry or dry lubes*.

Extreme dust and sand - run dry or dry lubes and brush off the dust and sand often. An old fashion shaving brush does the job.

Worked for the M1 and works for the M14. I think of these rifles as having been designed for tractor mechanics - big parts, lots of grease and lube. The M16 is more like a precision sewing machine (but a very deadly and competent sewing machine) in its design and requirements for lube.

*We have a lube for the cryostats that we use for frozen sections at the hospital that would likely work for a cold lube. We run the cryostats at -22*C

[Art]

Tropical, temperate, and wet climates - Grease!

Very cold - run dry or dry lubes*.

Extreme dust and sand - run dry or dry lubes and brush off the dust and sand often. An old fashion shaving brush does the job.

Worked for the M1 and works for the M14. I think of these rifles as having been designed for tractor mechanics - big parts, lots of grease and lube. The M16 is more like a precision sewing machine (but a very deadly and competent sewing machine) in its design and requirements for lube.

*We have a lube for the cryostats that we use for frozen sections at the hospital that would likely work for a cold lube. We run the cryostats at -22*C

Were you taught that during or after basic training?

[13Echo]

The Bn and Battery had enough senior NCOs that had been to Korea, and, I think the CSM was in WW II as well, and understood what an M1 needed to function so we used their experience to make certain our M14s did the same.
Jerry Liles

[PhillipM]

The Bn and Battery had enough senior NCOs that had been to Korea, and, I think the CSM was in WW II as well, and understood what an M1 needed to function so we used their experience to make certain our M14s did the same.
Jerry Liles

Do you shoot at Pioneer, LA?

[13Echo]

No. I'm from Monroe and shoot at a private range and the Ouachita Parish Sheriff's range. Only for fun matches like the Vintage rifle match. There are some really serious pistol shooters around here though.

[Driver 8]

Just a couple things come to mind.

The stock is not USGI and includes a scope rail. In my humble opinion, that stock / rail combo attracts dirt like a magnet.

Has anyone considered that they might be shooting 7.62 mm NATO surplus ammo in a gun chambered in .308? I'm sure that tjhis would occur. They are not the same. .308 NO GO is 7.62mm GO.

Regards,

Driver 8

[Art]

Just a couple things come to mind.

The stock is not USGI and includes a scope rail. In my humble opinion, that stock / rail combo attracts dirt like a magnet.

Has anyone considered that they might be shooting 7.62 mm NATO surplus ammo in a gun chambered in .308? I'm sure that tjhis would occur. They are not the same. .308 NO GO is 7.62mm GO.

Regards,

Driver 8

They made a point in the video of showing the ammo box they were using which was Federal commercial ammunition made especially for the M1A so that wasn't the problem.

The problem is the Garand action. If you lube it appropriately for the conditions you happen to be in at the time the problems are mitigated, but the Garand action does require a lot of attention to lubrication and this does vary with the conditions. It does help a lot, as well, if the people who are training you inform you of the above facts and you are provided with the stuff you need to lube or not lube it as necessary reliability suffers. More modern rifles aren't as picky about that stuff.

As an aside, our son who toted around an M4 for quite a few years in the Air Force told us it would have been really, really nice if the military would issue solvent which would really ease the maintenance chores especially since the M16 weapons series, like all direct impingement systems creates its own gung. The official line is that CLP is all you need, well I don't know if that's true but I have it from a reliable source that a good solvent whisks away that residue very quickly, some things never change it seems.

Oh, these guys aren't novices, they know the right way to clear a failure to extract and it is not klcking the op rod handle. I was never taught that in the Army either .

[Ted Brown]

I'm not sure what the point of all this is. Proper maintenance and lubrication (for the conditions) should be a normal part of everyone's shooting regimen. Those who don't know how to take care of their weapons shouldn't be shooting.