this really broke my bubble with the M14 even MORE!

[purple]

It's always interesting to hear about the "sand cuts" on the bolt carrier of the British L1A1 FAL. I was trained on and used the Canadian C1A1 FAL which didn't have these and we did use the rifle in sandy conditions. Any rifle will tend to clog in the sand, even the old desert standby the Lee-Enfield. One of the really nice things about the FN was that it could be so easily stripped to major parts for rapid cleaning in the field, so I really don't think that the sand cuts would have made any difference. The keys to success in the sand are user training and vigilance, very little oil, and the availability of suitable cleaning brushes.

[Art]

I talked to a friend tonight who was in the Marine Corps from 1964-1970. He told me that they used the M14 in Boot Camp and the M1 in Infantry school at that time. He also said that they were issued Lubri-Plate for use with both weapons and taught how to lubricate them for all conditions; competent administration is a wonderful thing. He has also told met that the problems with the M16 early on were due to improper training, especially the doctrine that the weapon was not to be cleaned, compounded by defective Winchester ball powder ammunition which was not only very dirty but way overpressure as well. He does prefer the Garand system.

[Rock]

Garand corrected some real design flaws in the M1 in the M14, one thing that particularly bugged me about the M1 feed system was that the follower can be put in backwards just as easily as it can be put in correctly. When this occurs it is impossible to load a clip into the weapon. I understand that in when the M1 was the service weapon every day "boots" on the range were getting their butts chewed for incorrectly assembling the rifle. Unfortunately the rifle was very easy to assemble incorrectly. The M14 by going to a box magazine not only fixed this problem but eliminated a bunch of small parts that could be very easily lost when dismounting the rifle in the field for cleaning, especially in the field. I especially liked the fact that the little pin used to retain the operating spring assembly is captive on the M14.

I know that some dislike certain design features of the M1 but I never considered the M1 a flawed design. It worked the way the Army intended.

I can see how an error could be made but that's the first I've heard about widespread follower assembly errors by troops. Also, although it is not taught in the Army manuals, it is possible to remove the Op Rod and Bolt without removing that pin and and all the small parts. This 'shortcut' makes M1 disassembly as simple as M14 disassembly. I do it all the time.

[Art]

I know that some dislike certain design features of the M1 but I never considered the M1 a flawed design. It worked the way the Army intended.

I can see how an error could be made but that's the first I've heard about widespread follower assembly errors by troops. Also, although it is not taught in the Army manuals, it is possible to remove the Op Rod and Bolt without removing that pin and and all the small parts. This 'shortcut' makes M1 disassembly as simple as M14 disassembly. I do it all the time.

I don't think it was widespread after training and I don't think it happened in training after the instructors jumped the first couple of basic trainees or boots showed up on the line with a rifle that couldn't be clip loaded and paid the price so I want to clarify that. People with all levels of mechanical competence and attention to detail show up in basic training.

I think there is a subtle difference between a design flaw as in something that had room for improvement but doesn't affect the functioning of the weapon, and a flawed design meaning the weapon (or any other device) does not function as intended. I think the lack of a true ejector on the Lee Enfield rifles is a design flaw, while it works most of the time, ejection is always weak and if the little extractor spring which is necessary to press the cartridge case against the left receiver wall weakens significantly at all, and it will eventually, ejection becomes problematic with maddening regularity. While the M1 follower design works as intended when assembled properly it doesn't work if the follower is reversed which is very easy to do. Just one small change in design would have made it impossible to install the follower incorrectly.

I think that the fact that in most Mauser rifles a round can't be loaded directly in the chamber is a flaw restricting the user to five rounds. A trick was developed to get around this that was actually taught, at least in some countries to allow the weapon to be carried with five rounds in the magazine and one in the chamber. This doesn't make the basic design flawed its just an area that have been easily corrected and was in the M1903 rifle but never was in the classic Mauser 98 design.

[Cecil]

Without seeing the video you really have no idea on the conditions or the test itself.

I saw the video and that was sand in the extreme. I've owned 17 M1A's in my lifetime some of which were fired in very miserable conditions . Unless there was a "Zombie Apocalypse" why would you shoot under those conditions with large chunks of sandy rock in relative gale force wind. That's the only way that large stuff could jump in the chamber. If I throw enough dirt at any weapon I'm guaranteed a failure. Give me realistic sand with realistic wind then we'll see.

[Rock]

Unless there was a "Zombie Apocalypse" why would you shoot under those conditions with large chunks of sandy rock in relative gale force wind. That's the only way that large stuff could jump in the chamber. If I throw enough dirt at any weapon I'm guaranteed a failure.

While these types of tests are interesting, they are also misleading. The Garand action was a very successful design. It was exposed to just about every environment on earth. It would not work if filled with that much dirt and sand. That was understood and the rifle was designed so that it could be quickly disassembled to remove debris. I think that most, if not all, bolt action rifles would have been disabled by the amount of dirt and sand used in the video. Sealing every opening on a rifle is one way to keep them operating in extreme conditions but I have yet to see one that is so air tight that dust is unable to enter. Dust will cause malfunctions in the M16 as we have seen in the current wars.

Malfunctions caused by foreign matter will be a thing of the past when a hermetically sealed action is designed or moving parts are eliminated. Otherwise, all service rifles need periodic maintenance.

[ripsaw]

A lot of what has been written here is good, but I must disagree with your assertions about the rifles needing to be broken in Art....and the assertion that most combat infantry soldiers rifles were broken in before combat use. This is simply not the case. The M14 was shipped in a ready to be fired condition from the containers, and did fire, and fire well with minimal or no issues, dry, un-lubed, ever.

I trained at San Diego with both the M1 and the M14 and we never heard of grease or oil on them. Torn down, cleaned, then reassembled, dry. No failures reported in my company., under many adverse conditions.

A properly built M14 such as the ones coming out of the big four makers shops, would fire as intended without issues. Dry. There was no need to break one in. I get a real kick and a laugh these days when I read all over the net....My rifle won't function. Did you lube it properly, change your ammo? I pay $1600 for a rifle, it better work dry and shoot anything I put in it. SAI gets too many free passes today under this "grease it, it will break in" umbrella. If it has functioning problems with no grease, something is wrong to begin with in the rifle....and it's usually in the receiver. Do yourselves a favor and get rid of the older receiver rifles that require grease to run, and buy yourselves a Gunworks of L.A. receiver. Problem solved.

I spent the last two years making sure it was exactly like the real deal and perfect in every way to the originals. There are those that will tell you it never happened, and I had nothing top do with it at all, but I have proof. I certainly do not wish to help them sell any of their receivers after the way I was done, but facts are facts and I don't lie. They are the best I've ever seen and are modeled from an original H&R M14 receiver. The only thing done differently is the full auto lug is removed, the op rod take down notch moved, and the connector arm assembly retaining notch deleted.

And for God's sake people, quit piling all this grease in your M1's and M14's. It is ridiculous and does absolutely nothing to help the function of them. Matter of fact, it hurts the function in many cases. It was probably all started by a grease manufacturer on the net.

[UUURah]

ripper, that's one of the most illiterate postings I have ever read on here.

Should I listen to you and NOT put any grease on my M-1's or M1A's the next time I fire them?

OR, should I listen to my old departed Parris Island Drill Instructors AND personal Range Instructors who drilled it into our heads for 13 weeks how to use those neat little Tubs of Garand Grease on our M-14's?

I wonder ... do you NOT use any Lube when you use a Condom to have sex? Bet there is some FRICTION there.

Sheeeese ................

[nf1e]

Personally I have been using grease on my M1s and M14s for 50 years as I was taught in the Marine Corps. Metal to metal contact gets grease, all other surfaces get a light coating of oil. The above post # 82 masks absolutely no sense in the real world.
On two separate occasions, while on active duty, I was issued new M14s which were well lubed and cycled by our armorers before putting them out, with careful instructions not to allow them to run dry. Even for inspection arms, lube was looked for and the rifles were not dry.

Semper Fi
Art

[ripsaw]

ripper, that's one of the most illiterate postings I have ever read on here.

Should I listen to you and NOT put any grease on my M-1's or M1A's the next time I fire them?

OR, should I listen to my old departed Parris Island Drill Instructors AND personal Range Instructors who drilled it into our heads for 13 weeks how to use those neat little Tubs of Garand Grease on our M-14's?

I wonder ... do you NOT use any Lube when you use a Condom to have sex? Bet there is some FRICTION there.

Sheeeese ................

Illiterate ehh?....Okay, whatever. But I am not the one that cannot absorb what they read. I didn't write, don't use any grease. I wrote, stop piling it in there.

Your much coveted and departed D.I. also taught people to smack the back of the op rod too, right? ...When they should have sent the rifle to the armory to have the timing fixed on it. All of them. Just because some half trained D.I. got in your head and yelled a little to teach you something, doesn't mean it was correct, or the best way to do it, only uncle sam's way.

How many things has he gotten right over the years?.... Not many. Start with the Indian treaties and uncle's record of dismal failures. Then come back and let us know which of us is illiterate. Here's a hint. Not one single treaty ever entered into with any tribe, was ever honored. "All" were broken by the U.S. GOVERNMENT..... So let the liars teach you the way to run your rifles. I barely care.

[UUURah]

ripper, ripper, ripper ....... we buy you books and buy you books but all you do is color the necked women.

Fortunately, or UNfortunately in your case, until you go back and EDIT your posting, here is your direct quote...

I trained at San Diego with both the M1 and the M14 and we never heard of grease or oil on them. Torn down, cleaned, then reassembled, dry

and....

A properly built M14 such as the ones coming out of the big four makers shops, would fire as intended without issues. Dry.

You are fairly new on here, ripper. Some of us didn't ride into town on a Jackass ... yesterday.

[nf1e]

ripper, ripper, ripper ....... we buy you books and buy you books but all you do is color the necked women.

Fortunately, or UNfortunately in your case, until you go back and EDIT your posting, here is your direct quote...



You are fairly new on here, ripper. Some of us didn't ride into town on a Jackass ... yesterday.

Excellent +1. I thought we were moving into that infamous parallel universe of fables.

Semper Fi
Art

[Richard H Brown Jr]

You guys seem to dis-remember that those Garands and M-14's in Army and Air Force Basic and RTD San Diego, and Parris Island were well and trueley broken in by lots and lots of trainee's firing them year after year after year in training cycles. And at least in the Army, if you weren't field training with your rifle, it was locked up in the arms room, And if you drew it, it was for the weekly cleaning, and returned ONLY when the armorer was happy that it was clean, and barely oiled and greased so he didn't get gigged for dirty weapons by the IG. And the only time your weapon went to higher level maintenance, was when the unit armorer couldn't fix *minor* problems.

RHB.

[Col. Colt]

I am a bit surprised that someone who would aspire to and spend the money to tool up and manufacture a respected, established product would fail to read into and fully research the already existing Knowledge Base in detail, and fully understand it's needs.

The Field Manuals, written by US Ordnance Dept/Springfield Armory for both the M1 and the M14 specify, with diagrams for those who cannot read, GREASE LUBE POINTS for both Rifles, with arrows! The M1 ran into funtioning problems in the rain, particularly in Tropical downpours. The solution was Lubriplate 130, later replaced with Plastilube (brown grease). The M14 is, obviously "just" a product improved M1.

Jim Thompson, who wrote two excellent books on owning, using and collecting the M1 Garand, found out why Grease is Necessary for the 1930's Garand design. He decided to verify or deny the myth that the Garand could not safely shoot bullet weights over 175 grs. He obtained a 500 round case of 220 grain, .30-06 BEAR LOADS, and using a good Service Grade M1, lubed per the manual with Grease, Rifle, proceeded to shoot over 460 rounds without incident or even accelerated wear. He removed the Rifle Grease and just lubed with regular gun oil. The M1 SEIZED UP in the next seven rounds, with DAMAGE, primarily to the OP Rod.

The only time you don't use Grease on either weapon, per the USGI manual, is under specific Arctic and Desert conditions, where a lighter lube is indicated - in the Manual written by the personnel who designed developed and produced the weapons. Look it up. CC

PS - I have an even earlier, different lead toothpaste tube of "M1 Grease" apparently developed during the Gas Trap Garand's early deployment. John Garand developed the M1 and worked at Springfield Armory into the 1950's. If the grease was unnecessary he probably would have said something. CC

[nf1e]

Thanks Col.Colt,
You are spot on.
There are some that can read all the literature in the world and not comprehend any of it. Post # 83 above is an excellent example. Thank goodness there are folks with experience that can dispel these absurdities before rumor control transmits them onto the rest of the world as facts.

Semper Fi
Art