Sniper rifles in private hands ???

[1903fan]

I have been reading on sniper rifles in this forum, and no one has a A5 Winchester sniper rifle. Expert consensus that they were destroyed later. I've seen some Warner Swasy sniper rifles before, are these most likely real? Are there any other real types out there? I can see how these are all so rare, but itd be great if someone owned a real one, of any kind! My dad was a WWII Gyrene, and said the 1903 was a great shooter, loved them ever since!

[John Beard]

By "A5 Winchester sniper rifle," do you mean a Winchester rifle fitted with an Winchester A5 scope? Or do you mean an M1903 rifle fitted with a Winchester A5 scope? Please advise which one.

And if you mean the latter (M1903 rifle fitted with a Winchester A5 scope), then those rifles exist, but they're very scarce.

J.B.

[1903fan]

Yes with this being the 1903 page I am referring to a 1903 with a Winchester A5 scope as the Marines used in WWI. So far I have not been able to find any that are real that exist and are pictured just ones that are rumors.

[1903fan]

I would not mind owning a Warner Swasy rifle one day, some forum members say the were used by all marines and army alike. I do see them from time to time for sale.

[clintonhater]

And if you mean the latter (M1903 rifle fitted with a Winchester A5 scope), then those rifles exist, but they're very scarce.

J.B.

If so, it's not because the fakers aren't doing their dead level best to put more of them into circulation. They've driven up the price of Winchester scopes (which I began collecting 40 yrs ago, along with other antique scopes) to stratospheric levels. The first thing any dealer does who gets his hand on one of them is list it on ebay as a "sniper scope," despite the fact that only a tiny fraction of them were ever used for that purpose.

[cplnorton]

The Marine A5 Sniper rifle is a complicated topic. Because nothing about it is simple. The Unertl Sniper rifles are simpled compared to the A5. lol

But the problem lies in the fact that you have a rifle that was probably built by three seperate hands, just during the WWI time period. I can place two different versions in Marine hands in France alone. The after the war, you have a rifle that the Marines were still building and re-building until 1941. The last Marine A5 rifles built by the Marines that I can trace, were in 1941. There are actually some good pics of the A5 rifles in WWII. But those would have been rebuilds or new builds. They weren't likely original WWI configuration.

The Burden of proof is anyone's task in saying they have a Marine A5, because even in 1939, the majority of them didn't exist. At least not in WWI configuration. So for any to be in original WWI condition, it would have just had to escaped the Marine Corps pretty early on after WWI.

For instance, I have a A5 rifle that has the Winchester Springfield Marine Blocks and it matches identical to a Marine A5 pictured in France in WWI. But my rifle is a original 1909 rifle, so the burden of proof on me is to prove whether it was built for a rifle team or it was built as a sniper. Even these rifles are rare. I only know of a couple in private hands, and one complete one at Cody Museum.

But the A5 rifles are so complicated to prove, because you have several different people who built them, and many years of service and parts swapped. Unless you can get a offical Marine Corps document with the serial on it, saying it's a Telescopic equipped rifle, I think it's pretty hard to prove one.

The Serials of the A5 rifles are at the Archives though. I have no doubt on that. It just might takes years to find them. There are a lot of documents to go through there.

[1903fan]

The Marine A5 Sniper rifle is a complicated topic. Because nothing about it is simple. The Unertl Sniper rifles are simpled compared to the A5. lol

But the problem lies in the fact that you have a rifle that was probably built by three seperate hands, just during the WWI time period. I can place two different versions in Marine hands in France alone. The after the war, you have a rifle that the Marines were still building and re-building until 1941. The last Marine A5 rifles built by the Marines that I can trace, were in 1941. There are actually some good pics of the A5 rifles in WWII. But those would have been rebuilds or new builds. They weren't likely original WWI configuration.

The Burden of proof is anyone's task in saying they have a Marine A5, because even in 1939, the majority of them didn't exist. At least not in WWI configuration. So for any to be in original WWI condition, it would have just had to escaped the Marine Corps pretty early on after WWI.

For instance, I have a A5 rifle that has the Winchester Springfield Marine Blocks and it matches identical to a Marine A5 pictured in France in WWI. But my rifle is a original 1909 rifle, so the burden of proof on me is to prove whether it was built for a rifle team or it was built as a sniper. Even these rifles are rare. I only know of a couple in private hands, and one complete one at Cody Museum.

But the A5 rifles are so complicated to prove, because you have several different people who built them, and many years of service and parts swapped. Unless you can get a offical Marine Corps document with the serial on it, saying it's a Telescopic equipped rifle, I think it's pretty hard to prove one.

The Serials of the A5 rifles are at the Archives though. I have no doubt on that. It just might takes years to find them. There are a lot of documents to go through there.

Oh wow!!! Just even finding a Marine special taper block rifle like yours is very neat! I would like to get my paws on something from that time eventually, maybe a Warner Swasy, maybe a A5.

[John Beard]

Counting cplnorton's rifle, I am aware of at least ten (10) USMC sniper rifles from the WWI period in private collections. So the rifles can be found. But as clintonhater pointed out, I am also aware of fakes.

Caveat Emptor!

J.B.

[cplnorton]

Oh wow!!! Just even finding a Marine special taper block rifle like yours is very neat! I would like to get my paws on something from that time eventually, maybe a Warner Swasy, maybe a A5.

The only catch, mine isn't the tappered block version. Mine is the style Winchester produced for the Marine Corps.

I personally want one of the Marine A5 rifles put together in 1941. I would like to have one of those, and so far I only know of one out there, and he isn't going to sell it.
That is really one of the last Marine Sniper rifles I want.

[1903fan]

The only catch, mine isn't the tappered block version. Mine is the style Winchester produced for the Marine Corps.

I personally want one of the Marine A5 rifles put together in 1941. I would like to have one of those, and so far I only know of one out there, and he isn't going to sell it.
That is really one of the last Marine Sniper rifles I want.

Oh I see, I thought they were all tapered blocks like the ones in WWI and WWII! Lots to learn out there still, but I am enjoying going through more. Have you shown it to Marine A5 Sniper JT on here? He is very knowledgeable on them and has scene a lot of them.

[cplnorton]

Oh I see, I thought they were all tapered blocks like the ones in WWI and WWII! Lots to learn out there still, but I am enjoying going through more. Have you shown it to Marine A5 Sniper JT on here? He is very knowledgeable on them and has scene a lot of them.

Jim has seen it. But Jim and I have reached very different conclusions on our research of the Marine A5 rifles.

The A5 story is really in need of a rewrite. You don't find much written on them in the books or online, mostly because not a lot of original documentation has never been found. And many of the things written, were more based on opinions, than actual documentation. But a couple guys (Andrew Stolinksi and Tim Plowman) are pulling some amazing stuff out of the National Archives, and they should be commended for the amount of work they are doing there to find the original documents.

John Beard who posted earlier is a really good person to talk to about all of this as well. I really value his opinion and have talked with him offline a lot. John is a really good guy, and probably out of all of us who research these rifles, he has has seen the most real ones. He's been the 1903 sniper expert for so long, and that title always brings a lot of perks. There are a lot of guys who are very secretive of their rifles, but they will show him stuff, that they will not show many others.

[1903fan]

Jim has seen it. But Jim and I have reached very different conclusions on our research of the Marine A5 rifles.

The A5 story is really in need of a rewrite. You don't find much written on them in the books or online, mostly because not a lot of original documentation has never been found. And many of the things written, were more based on opinions, than actual documentation. But a couple guys (Andrew Stolinksi and Tim Plowman) are pulling some amazing stuff out of the National Archives, and they should be commended for the amount of work they are doing there to find the original documents.

John Beard who posted earlier is a really good person to talk to about all of this as well. I really value his opinion and have talked with him offline a lot. John is a really good guy, and probably out of all of us who research these rifles, he has has seen the most real ones. He's been the 1903 sniper expert for so long, and that title always brings a lot of perks. There are a lot of guys who are very secretive of their rifles, but they will show him stuff, that they will not show many others.

Well shoot if this all gets a rewrite be sure to share on here for us to read! It's a lot of fun to read all the ins and outs.

Would you have a Warner Swasy too? I'm not sure if you have seen the Canfield and Brophy books but boy there are some great shots of the World War One snipers.

[cplnorton]

I've had Warner Swaseys. Both with scopes, and then also the pluggged receiver service rifles, but I've never had one that I thought was original to WWI, and that is what I really want if I get another one again.

I think the documents said Springfield Armory declared them obsolete in 1924, and ordered all the receivers to have the mounts removed, and them to be returned to regular service rifles. Which they just cut the mount off them and ground the screws flush to the receiver.

So just not a lot of original ones are out there. And most you see, they are restorations of a plugged receiver. If I ever see one that I think is original, I might try to pick one up again. They are sort of a neat rifle.

Promo on here, has some really nice Warner Swasey rifles. But then the problem lies if you get a nice Warner Swasey sniper, then you need a nice Maxim Silencer to go along with it. It's a sickness I swear! lol

[cplnorton]

Yeah I really like Brophy's book. His book is probably about the best written so far on the A5 rifles. It's a little older one, so it could use a little bit of a update. But honestly as far as the A5 goes, his has the most info of any written that I have seen that is correct.

If you sort of read between the lines though when you read his info on the A5, I think he suspects something hasn't been recorded right. At least I think he hints around it. But honestly I wish he was still around. I would love to talk to him and exchange ideas.

If you really like WWI pics, you might like these. These have all circulated enought that I don't think any are any big secret anymore. The top one is in Brophy's book, but this is the high defintion one from the Archvies. The two top pics are both pictured in France in 1918. Then up close of the rifles. The next two are stateside in Sniper School in Nov 1918. I copied them off an original panaramoic picture. The next is a newspaper ad that ran nationwide in July 1917, as they were testing a new rifle. There are more, but these are really some of the best from WWI.

[m1903rifle]

03 carbines???