Correct bolt for 3.2 million Remington 03

[lyman]

Lyman, you remind me of an Alabama leg Dog.

F. Guffey

time for your meds sir,

[fguffey]

A master welder, master machinist, gunsmith, professor at one a Texas University with all of the degrees called and had a question about bolts; seems the total knowledge known to the gunsmith world was answered with "Purchase a bucket of bolts". He offered to drive half way and pay for lunch, I could not refuse the offer from one of my few friends.

I boxed up a few tools and 30 03/03A3 bolts, he was not familiar with a few of the tools but there was nothing unusual about the bolts. I demonstrated the tools to show him the tools could determine the effect each bolt had on offsetting the length of the chamber, meaning; if the smith in need of a bolt had the ability to measure the bolt replacing a bolt did not require ordering a bucket full. Problem; the smith would have to explain how to measure a bolt.

And I had 2 bolts that he thought were radical, I told him I had made efforts to market them at gun shows, problem; they have gotten through most of their life's' without the tool they did not understand therefore they did not need it.

And as always the conversation always involves head space head space gages. I told him I did not use head space gages on the 03. I told him there were better ways and the head space gage was not necessary. Again, he was a smith and master machinist, It was not necessary to draw pictures or argue, he thought it was about something he should have thought of.

F. Guffey

[JOHN COOK]

And as always the conversation always involves head space head space gages. I told him I did not use head space gages on the 03. I told him there were better ways and the head space gage was not necessary. Again, he was a smith and master machinist, It was not necessary to draw pictures or argue, he thought it was about something he should have thought of.

F. Guffey

Damn !!! I thought Einstein was dead....

john in SC

[lyman]

A master welder, master machinist, gunsmith, professor at one a Texas University with all of the degrees called and had a question about bolts; seems the total knowledge known to the gunsmith world was answered with "Purchase a bucket of bolts". He offered to drive half way and pay for lunch, I could not refuse the offer from one of my few friends.

I boxed up a few tools and 30 03/03A3 bolts, he was not familiar with a few of the tools but there was nothing unusual about the bolts. I demonstrated the tools to show him the tools could determine the effect each bolt had on offsetting the length of the chamber, meaning; if the smith in need of a bolt had the ability to measure the bolt replacing a bolt did not require ordering a bucket full. Problem; the smith would have to explain how to measure a bolt.

And I had 2 bolts that he thought were radical, I told him I had made efforts to market them at gun shows, problem; they have gotten through most of their life's' without the tool they did not understand therefore they did not need it.

And as always the conversation always involves head space head space gages. I told him I did not use head space gages on the 03. I told him there were better ways and the head space gage was not necessary. Again, he was a smith and master machinist, It was not necessary to draw pictures or argue, he thought it was about something he should have thought of.

F. Guffey

you know there may be a reason for that,


not sure how any of this applies to the topic, but we do tend to drift sometimes,

[fguffey]

Damn !!! I thought Einstein was dead....

Thank you. Again, a resource type person that no longer post on this sold me a mill; after loading etc. he mentioned he was having trouble determining the length of a chamber in a period correct for 1911 Rock Island 03. He said he had asked for help on an 03/03A3 forum (long story with no help)

He handed me a box of 20+ head space gages, none of the gages indicated the length of the chamber from the datum to the bolt face. I offered to modify one of his go-gages to a go to infinity gage, the problem with that was when finished the gage the gage would be 'altered. I told him he could measure the length of the chamber 3 different ways without a head space gage in thousandths. So I did, I measured the length of his chamber in thousandths without a head space gage. The tools did not cost him a dime because he had the tools on the wall, on his benches or in his tool box. In a few minutes he knew the length of the chamber, his chamber was .0025" longer than a go-gage length chamber and .0025" shorter than a no go-gage length chamber. I offered to form cases for his long chamber. I offered to off set the length of the chamber with longer cases.

He insisted on building the rifle with a chamber that was go-gage length. He had at the time 100+ 03 bolts, I offered to measure all of them to determine if he had a bolt that would shorten a chamber, I assured him he did not have one. He knew I had 35 03/03A3 bolts, I informed him I had already measure my bolts for their ability to off set the length of a chamber, and I had none.

Another problem, the Rock Island period correct rifle had a straight handle; he had one straight handle bolt that would not correct the length of the chamber. I have one that is in a Rock Island that is scoped out with a bent bolt to clear the scope. I have been asked why I trust my Rock Island, I explained I did not test the rifle but the previous owner did ever time he fired it.

I understand it is about conditioning, First it is the go-gage, and then the no go-gage, after that there is the field reject length gage. I can do anything with a field reject length gage that a reloader/smith can do with three gages. The difference is I can 'do it' in thousandths. The difficult part? That would be the part about convincing someone it can be done.

I was reading an old article about smiths in the 40s and early 50s. Many talked tacky about one smith at one of the Arsenals. Seems he had different methods and techniques they did not understand. Not a one of them asked him "How do you do that"? I thought there had to be more to the story and I felt he knew something they did not and he used tools differently meaning they had the same tools but he had a better understanding of how tools are used.

There are so many people on forums that are desperate for attention they will not consider there is something they are overlooking.

F. Guffey

[PWC]

I believe most people use the gauges because ther are easy and straight forward to use rather than some esoteric, maybe arcane process. Then they choose to adjust case length by bumping the shoulder....oh, my gosh, did I say "shoulderbump" in this thread....sorry folks. I may have just added pages to this thread.

[fguffey]

Then they choose to adjust case length by bumping the shoulder....oh, my gosh, did I say "shoulderbump" in this thread....sorry folks. I may have just added pages to this thread.

OK, you can start by explaining how it is possible to bump the shoulder back and or move the shoulder back. I have tried to move the shoulder back as in shorten the case by moving the shoulder back with a die that has case body support; I have found it is impossible to move the shoulder back with a die that has case body support.

Reloaders have dies, they do not understand what is happening when they use them. And then there is 'bump', bump is a function of the press. A friend died early last year; he had an A2 RCBS press, I measured the 'bump on that press. The bump on that press was .037", to verify the bump measure the cam over. The bump and the cam over measures the same.

F. Guffey

[PWC]

See, I said this would probably add pages to this thread.

Guffey, I don't feel the need to rehash the shoulder bump or headspace discussions which have been amply conducted here and on other forums. I do read your posts, but sometimes it seems there is something missing in what you say, kinda like giving a recepie and leaving out an ingredient.

[fguffey]

but sometimes it seems there is something missing in what you say, kinda like giving a recepie and leaving out an ingredient.

That beats your usual wildly indigent response. I said I find it impossible to move the shoulder back; what is missing? You claim you can bump and or move the shoulder back, all I want to know is 'HOW do you move the shoulder back? I understand it is possible to shorten the case from the shoulder to the case head, I also know I have tried to shorten the case between the shoulder and case head I have found I can not shorten the case without case body support.

I have suggested reloaders scribe the case body/shoulder juncture before they start. If they were able to move the shoulder back the scribed line would move down the case body or it would wad up beneath the die.

The shoulder of the case has no choice but to move through the die.

I have turned cases into bellows or something that took on the appearance of an accordion when making attempts to move the shoulder back; the only way I could move the shoulder back was with a die that did not have case body support.

F. Guffey

[fguffey]

See, I said this would probably add pages to this thread.

Have you ever measured cam over on a press? I have, I have presses that cam over and I have presses that do not cam over. Is it important to understand cam over? It makes a difference when adjusting the die to the shell holder?

When adjusting the die to the shell holder reloaders claim they use the .002" shoulder set back: I have asked where that technique/procedure cam from. Without knowing if the press is a cam over press the reloader has no clue as to what he is doing when making precision adjustments. BUT! He gets away with it because there are very few if any reloaders on reloading forums that know the difference.

the reloader claims "HE BUMPS" without knowing 'BUMP' is a function of the press.

F. Guffey

[PWC]

That beats your usual wildly indigent response.
F. Guffey

I don't believe you mean indigent, but rather indignent. I don't see any acrimony in my response.

I have never said I bump case shoulders as you say. Others have argued your method; I read it and find it interesting but when you speak of tools you've made or modified, information about them seems lacking.

I do use my dies per their instructions, and generally understood set up procedures and I get 12 to 15+ reloads per case.

>

[fguffey]

I don't believe you mean indigent, but rather indignent.

And you are correct but I believe you meant indignant.

I do use my dies per their instructions, and generally understood set up procedures and I get 12 to 15+ reloads per case.

I have die adjustment instructions for most of my dies/presses, some of them go back to the late fifties, early sixties. My die instructions recommend adjusting the die down to the shell holder with a recommended additional 1/4 turn after contact. Again, a reloaders makes many claims their press cams over. I have at least 12 presses that cam over, of the press that cams over the instructions mentioned above are not correct instructions for a cam over press yet many reloaders cam over their press and there is not a one of them they can tell how much their press cams over.

You get 12 to 15 + reloads per case. I have to take your word for it, I am the fan of reducing case travel, to accomplish that I can not use the same instructions you use. It is not possible to get many firings out of a case by returning it to minimum length/full length sizing. The most unlikely chamber I am going to encounter is a short chamber.

many times I ask where the .002" adjustment came from and no one knows.

F. Guffey

[PWC]

Guffey - yes, I see we are both having problems with 1/4" icons on phones with 1/2" fingers.

"and generally understood set up procedures".....things I have picked up here and from other forums about case prep.

[PWC]

Guffey - I was on the THR forum and I read one of your new responses and...just for grins and giggles I went back and read some of your early posts on subjects I'm interested in, mostly reloading. Now, I've been on CSP/Jouster since '82, and I've seen the same questions asked many times, just stated differently.

Reference my previous comment that I felt like some of your responses seemed like a receipe missing an ingredient. Well, I discovered your earlier posts (2008 on) were more complete, and more understandable. I have seen more current answers that seemed like direct quotes from your older posts, but not as complete as the older posts. Maybe you have grown tired of responding to the same questions, and give us the Reader's Digest version.... I believe there is valuable info in what's left out.

I like your early version posts...without the argumentation.

[fguffey]

Guffey - I was on the THR forum and I read one of your new responses and

"new responses?", I do not believe you are lucky because you did not say thank you for your effort, and then there is always a big chance my response will be delegated before anyone has a chance to read it. that does not bother you so I have no use for you.

I have always felt reloading forums should have a forum for lonely people, you wasted time in going back, back in the old days reloaders thought the datum was a line. They could not handle it when I tried to convince them the datum was not a linen I told them the datum was a circle, I told them the datum was a round hole, I told them the round hole had to have a sharp edge. I tried to convince them they could make datums etc., they got angry. And then? They got giggle about the Sinclair/Hornady gage. The first deceleration? It was a head space gage; and I said it can not be because the the datum has a radius and the same tool is being made today. Reloaders did not know the difference between a gage and comparator, if it was up to reloaders every tool would be a head space gage.

F. Guffey