Tweet
No, I loaded 28 gr of 5744 with a 220 cast bullet for 30,300 PSI. ThaT number is consistent among all the references for that powder and similar loads.
-
-
I highly doubt this. Burning by definition requires exposure to oxygen and there is no way the center of steel could be exposed to oxygen or be hotter than the outside exposed directly to the flame.One speculative point based on science: the core temp of a blank could not be measured back then. Burning can take place in the center and the outside can be fine - so the eyeball method could be dead on, but the chewy chocolate center could still be burnt. Further, the temp at the center can be raised by more rapid cycles of the drop hammer (from friction). Again, an opportunity for inexperienced or hurried drop forgers to burn steel on the inside.Last edited by PhillipM; 06-25-2016, 11:13.Phillip McGregor (OFC)
"I am neither a fire arms nor a ballistics expert, but I was a combat infantry officer in the Great War, and I absolutely know that the bullet from an infantry rifle has to be able to shoot through things." General Douglas MacArthurComment
-
But that's not the official maximum allowable average pressure for the .30-06. The Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers Institute (SAAMI) which is the official authority, lists 60,000 PSI.
Now, there is no formula to convert PSI to CUP, but from memory, the former standard was 48,000 CUP.Comment
-
Last edited by PhillipM; 06-25-2016, 01:41.Phillip McGregor (OFC)
"I am neither a fire arms nor a ballistics expert, but I was a combat infantry officer in the Great War, and I absolutely know that the bullet from an infantry rifle has to be able to shoot through things." General Douglas MacArthurComment
-
Nothing is actually "burnt" in the sense that a log is burnt in the fireplace. The carbon precipitates out throughout the steel, not just on the interior -- in other words, the metallic structure of the steel is changed to a mixture of carbon and iron, rather than an alloy.
The simplest way of determining the correct temperature for quenching steel is to test the hot metal with a magnet -- when the steel loses it's magnetic properties, it's time to quench. Heating beyond that point can cause the carbon to disassociate from the iron.Comment
-
This may help:
Steel is an alloy of iron and other elements, primarily carbon, widely used in construction and other applications because of its high tensile strength and low cost. The base metal, iron, is able to take on two crystalline forms, body centered cubic and face centered cubic, depending on its temperature. It is the interaction of those allotropes with the alloying elements, primarily carbon, that gives steel and cast iron their range of unique properties. In the body-centred cubic arrangement, there is an additional iron atom in the centre of each cube, and in the face-centred cubic, there is one at the center of each of the six faces of the cube. Carbon, other elements, and inclusions within iron act as hardening agents that prevent the movement of dislocations that otherwise occur in the crystal lattices of iron atoms.Comment
-
I don't have my copy of Hatcher in front of me but IIRC he found there were a few bad batches several years apart, the old story that the problem was due to new workers hired for increase wartime production is just a story. I have also read that Pershing insisted that his troops spend as much time on the rifle range as possible, it seems to me a lot of those LNs were worked hard. There was quite a controversy over the 7th round stoppage in the M-1 Rifle until Garand pointed out they had followed his design correctly.Comment
-
Slamfire
Who are these mysterious "deniers"?
Rather than give opinions of others, give the real time data. This is my collection of data. Do you know of any others by serial number? Note the descrepencies in Hatcher's Data from his notebook. My data came from the actual armory reports Hatcher used. Hatcher seems to have been prone to error.
jt
Failed 1903 Springfields 92 receiver failures Jim Tarleton # Cause SA RIA Date Receiver Damage Where/Why/How Source 1 Bbl Burst 193825 February 24, 1908 CO D 28TH INF (BBL BURST) SRS 2 Bbl Burst 35630 February 26, 1908 CO A 27TH INF (BBL BURST) SRS 3 Bbl Burst 51514 March 23, 1908 CO A, 27TH INF - BBL BURST SRS 4 Bbl Burst 17397 June 8, 1908 ILL NG (BBL BURST) SRS 5 Bbl Burst 7918 November 19, 1908 ILL NG (BBL BURST) SRS 6 25589 November 21, 1908 25589 93RD CO CAC (BURST) SRS 7 Bbl Burst 10806 December 4, 1908 TRP G 2ND CAV (BBL BURST) SRS 8 114866 January 23, 1909 114866 BURST DURING TARGETING SRS 9 Bbl Burst 286305 June 5, 1909 DC NG (BBL BURST) SRS 10 67521 March 29, 1910 67521 BURST SRS 11 39816 April 15, 1910 39816 BURST SRS 12 44855 June 7, 1910 44855 BURST SRS 13 45248 June 8, 1910 45248 BURST SRS 14 20923 September 25, 1910 20923 ILL NG (BURST) SRS 15 114985 December 19, 1910 114985 14TH INF (BURST) SRS 16 Burnt 89728 January 1, 1917 89728 Broke Hatcher 17 Burnt 486640 January 1, 1917 486640 Broke Hatcher 18 Ammo 573104 January 1, 1917 Bolt and lugs stripped Hatcher 19 Burnt UNK January 1, 1917 UNK Fractured Receiver Hatcher 20 UNK January 1, 1917 UNK Broke Hatcher 21 Burnt UNK January 1, 1917 UNK Shattered Receiver Haycher 22 Bbl/Obstrctn 138978 May 21, 1917 Muzzle blew off & bbl split entire length in 2 places due to obstrctn in bore Hatcher 23 Ammo 656701 July 16, 1917 656701 Fractured Receiver Hatcher 24 Ammo 312249 July 20, 1917 312249 Fractured Receiver Hatcher 25 ?? 89720 August 1, 1917 89720 Burst receiver - Trp E 1st Cavalry Hatcher 26 ?? UNK August 15, 1917 UNK Burst Receiver Hatcher 27 Ammo 223235 September 18, 1917 223235 Fractured Receiver - did not shatter Hatcher 28 Burnt UNK September 19, 1917 UNK Shattered Receiver Hatcher 29 ?? 547854 October 8, 1917 Barrel blew off - previously classified as "UNK" Hatcher 30 Ammo 573697 November 6, 1917 Bolt and lugs stripped SRS/Hatcher 31 Ammo 632817 November 6, 1917 Bolt and lugs stripped SRS/Hatcher 32 Bad BbL 108448 December 1, 1917 Barrel Burst - poor steel - 150th Inf Hatcher 33 Ammo 278671 January 1, 1918 Backfired-Camp Shelby-repaired w/1917 bbl Hatcher 34 Ammo 165282 January 1, 1918 165282 Burst Receiver-Camp Shelby-unhardened Hatcher 35 Ammo 224554 January 1, 1918 224554 Backfired-Camp Shelby Hatcher 36 Ammo 225764 January 1, 1918 225764 Burst Receiver-Camp Shelby Hatcher 37 Ammo 239356 January 1, 1918 239356 Burst Receiver-Camp Shelby Hatcher 38 Ammo 239754 January 1, 1918 239754 Burst Receiver-Camp Shelby-bad steel stock Hatcher 39 Ammo 240914 January 1, 1918 240914 Burst Receiver-Camp Shelby-bad steel stock Hatcher 40 Ammo 253241 January 1, 1918 253241 Burst Receiver-Camp Shelby Hatcher 41 Ammo 262165 January 1, 1918 262165 Burst Receiver-Camp Shelby Hatcher 42 Ammo 445136 January 1, 1918 445136 Burst Receiver-Camp Shelby-bad steel stock Hatcher 43 108448 January 7, 1918 108448 CAMP SHELBY (BURST) SRS 44 Burnt 117794 January 17, 1918 117794 Brkn firing pin rod-premature exp-burnt Hatcher 45 217794 January 17, 1918 217794 Fractured Receiver Hatcher 46 486460 January 29, 1918 486460 BURST NAVY RIFLE SRS 47 572301 January 29, 1918 572301 BURST NAVY RIFLE SRS 48 572323 January 29, 1918 572323 BURST NAVY RIFLE SRS 49 573528 January 29, 1918 573528 BURST NAVY RIFLE SRS 50 573744 January 29, 1918 573744 BURST NAVY RIFLE SRS 51 609 February 1, 1918 609 USN (Receiver failed) SRS 52 Ammo 501719 February 20, 1918 501719 Failed Hatcher 53 Bad Bbl 141157 March 1, 1918 Split barrel-Camp Bowie, Tx Hatcher 54 Ammo/Brk Bolt 276691 March 17, 1918 Bolt face blown off due to ruptured case/excessive pressure Hatcher 55 Bad Bbl 723664 May 1, 1918 Split barrel Hatcher 56 ?? 200512 June 1, 1918 200512 Shattered Receiver-bolt & receiver shattered Hatcher 57 Bad Bbl 658742 June 1, 1918 Burst Barrel Hatcher 58 501719 September 17, 1918 501719 Failed in service SRS 59 Ammo 222223 October 19, 1918 222223 Burst due to defective ammo-Bat E 139th FA SRS 60 Bad Steel 662284 February 22, 1919 662284 RECEIVER BURST - bad steel stock Htchr/SRS 61 662263 April 12, 1919 662263 RECEIVER BURST SRS List 62 Bad Steel 666263 April 12, 1919 666263 Shattered Receiver - bad steel stock Hatcher 63 Ammo 712363 May 1, 1919 712363 Fractured Receiver-shell casing blew out of rifle Hatcher 64 Bbl Split 297591 June 4, 1919 Bbl split when blank cartridge fired behind bore obstruction Hatcher 65 Ammo 101200 May 23, 1920 101200 Shattered Receiver-bad ammo Hatcher 66 Ammo 203851 June 16, 1920 203851 Shattered Receiver-bad ammo Hatcher 67 Bbl/Obstrctn 167204 July 19, 1920 Obstruction in bore-bbl burst Hatcher 68 Bbl Burst 365338 August 6, 1920 CO E 23RD INF (BBL BURST) SRS 69 Bad Bbl 608408 January 1, 1921 Barrel burst due to bad steel Hatcher 70 Handload 177232 May 1, 1921 177232 Failed due to handload & SHT receiver Hatcher 71 Bad Bbl 607222 June 2, 1921 Barrel Burst under rear frsb- poor steel - 150th Inf Hatcher 72 Ammo 770160 July 13, 1921 770160 Shattered Receiver-excessive pressure & SHT Hatcher 73 Open bolt/Fired 1215353 July 28, 1921 Hang fire allowed time to open bolt as it fired, breaking bolt/recevier not damaged Hatcher 74 Ammo 70971 August 1, 1921 70971 Fractured Receiver-soft case & SHT Hatcher 75 Greased ammo UNK August 12, 1921 UNK Greased ammo-Philippine Rifle Team/receiver failed Hatcher 76 8mm Rnd UNK November 24, 1921 UNK Shattered Receiver Hatcher 77 Bbl/Obstrctn 379004 January 1, 1922 Barrel burst due to obstruction in bore Hatcher 78 Bbl/Obstrctn 459881 January 1, 1922 Barrel burst due to obstruction in bore Hatcher 79 Bad Bbl 759943 August 16, 1922 Chamber blew out due to burnt steel in bbl Hatcher 80 Ammo 146184 September 16, 1922 146184 Shattered Receiver-due to firing rifle grande Hatcher 81 Ammo 946508 January 1, 1923 946508 Deformed Receiver & Bolt-excessive pressure Hatcher 82 Bbl/Obstrctn 1093941 January 1, 1923 Barrel split due to obstruction in bore Hatcher 83 Ammo 234466 January 1, 1923 234466 Shattered Receiver-excessive pressure & SHT Hatcher 84 Ammo 235742 January 1, 1923 235742 Shattered Receiver-excessive pressure & SHT Hatcher 85 Bad Bbl 971779 January 1, 1923 Barrel failed due to a lap in the barrel Hatcher 86 Ammo 104926 April 30, 1923 104926 Shattered Receiver due to very excessive pressure Hatcher 87 Bbl Split 523089 May 1, 1923 Barrel split at chamber due to burnt metal Hatcher 88 Ammo 642742 May 9, 1923 642742 Fractured Receiver due to excessive pressure & SHT Hatcher 89 Bad Bbl 1254701 May 18, 1923 Barrel burst at chamber-burnt barrel Hatcher 90 Bbl/Obstrctn 970762 May 23, 1923 Bullet was stuck in bore-split barrel Hatcher 91 Ammo 284086 July 11, 1923 284086 Shattered Receiver from excessive headspace & pressure & SHT Hatcher 92 Bbl/Obstructn 655360 July 24, 1923 No defect-obstruction in bore-barrel burst Hatcher 93 Ammo 250560 October 27, 1923 250560 Receiver broke at barrel due to excessive pressure Hatcher 94 Bbl/Obstrctn 335258 January 1, 1924 Barrel bulged due to obstruction in bore Hatcher 95 Ammo 625587 January 1, 1924 625587 Failed while testing ammo that blew up 2 RIA's Hatcher 96 UNK May 1, 1924 Bolt blown out-SHT-7th Cavalry Hatcher 97 Bad Bbl 90101 June 1, 1924 Barrel ruptured due to seam Hatcher 98 Ammo UNK August 16, 1924 UNK Shattered Receiver due to annealed case & SHT Hatcher 99 Bad Bbl 78745 September 8, 1924 78745 Split barrel due to pipe-receiver split also Hatcher 100 Brkn FP 228112 September 15, 1924 228112 Fractured Receiver due to firing while closing bolt Hatcher 101 Bbl Split 90489 October 28, 1924 Muzzle stuck in ground then fired, split barrel from rec to lower band Hatcher 102 Ammo 642675 December 5, 1924 642675 Shattered Receiver due to excessive pressure & SHT Hatcher 103 Bbl Split 1004623 January 1, 1925 1 1/2" crack over chamber in barrel Hatcher 104 Rifle Grenade 468300 February 6, 1925 468300 Shattered Receiver due to firing rifle grenade Hatcher 105 Ammo 195082 March 4, 1925 195082 Shattered Receiver due to excessive pressure & SHT Hatcher 106 Bbl/Obstructn 613496 March 10, 1925 CO I 20TH INF (BBL BURST) - bullet in bore SRS 107 Ammo 206331 April 24, 1925 206331 Shattered Receiver due to failed cartridge case & SHT Hatcher 108 Bad Bbl 523444 May 21, 1925 Barrel blew apart due to burnt steel Hatcher 109 Ammo 170805 June 5, 1925 170805 Defective ammo & SHT Hatcher 110 Bbl/Obstrctn 146554 June 10, 1925 146554 Fractured Receiver due to bullet lodged in bore & SHT Hatcher 111 Bbl/Obstrctn 858256 August 13, 1925 Barrel split due to obstruction in bore Hatcher 112 8mm Rnd 1198207 October 17, 1925 Firing pin rod blown out and floorplate blown off & stock shattered Hatcher 113 Bbl Split 1201472 November 20, 1925 Barrel split firing tracers-defective bbl steel Hatcher 114 Ammo 299458 November 27, 1925 299458 Shattered Receiver due to failed cartridge case & SHT Hatcher 115 Bbl/Obstrctn 107317 January 1, 1926 Bbl bulged 50% due to obstruction Hatcher 116 Ammo 84685 April 13, 1926 84685 Shattered Receiver due to excessive pressure & SHT Hatcher 117 Bbl Split 735791 June 28, 1926 Barrel split due to defective steel Hatcher 118 Frd w/Blt open 111621 July 1, 1926 111621 Shattered Receiver due to firing before bolt was closed & SHT Hatcher 119 Bbl/Obstrctn 863426 July 11, 1926 Bbl burst near breach due to obstruction - receiver damaged Hatcher 120 Exc Hdspace 173807 August 15, 1926 173807 Receiver split from rifle due to excessive headspace & SHT Hatcher 121 8mm Ammo 43076 August 19, 1926 43076 Receiver shatterd due to firing 8mm ammo in rifle Hatcher 122 Burnt UNK September 11, 1926 UNK Shattered Receiver Hatcher 123 Bbl/Obstrctn UNK September 11, 1926 UNK Receiver failed - guard cartridge (unsrvcble) fired behind lodged bullet Hatcher 124 Ammo/Brittle 204801 October 21, 1926 204801 Shattered Receiver firing guard cartridge/excessive pressure & SHT Hatcher 125 Oil in Chamber 1216664 November 14, 1926 1216664 Oil in chamber/1921 Match Ammo/lugs set back/stock shattered Hatcher 126 Bbl/Obstrctn 745779 January 1, 1927 Bbl split due to obstruction in bore Hatcher 127 Bbl/Obstrctn 186047 January 1, 1927 Bbl bulged & cracked to to bore obstruction while hunting Hatcher 128 Bbl/Obstrctn 857791 May 7, 1927 Blew out magazine base, shattered stock, no damage to receiver apparent Hatcher 129 Ammo 816284 May 23, 1927 Bolt head broken, magazine buldged, stk shatterd due to excssve pressure Hatcher 130 Brittle Bolt 201595 June 1, 1927 Bolt blew out/brittle bolt Hatcher 131 Bbl/Obstructn 600988 June 13, 1927 Buldged muzzle due to obstruction in bore Hatcher 132 Ammo 1248143 June 30, 1927 Floor plate blew out due to failed case head and bkkn bolt flange Hatcher 133 Bbl Burst/Hndld 460371 July 1, 1927 Bbl burst 9" from muzzle from gallery handload due to obstruction in bore Hatcher 134 Ammo 874345 July 6, 1927 Stk shattered, buldged magazine due to failed case head Hatcher 135 8mm Ammo 560852 July 13, 1927 560852 Shattered Receiver Hatcher 136 Bbl/Obstrctn 16224 December 2, 1927 Bbl burst at muzzle due to obstruction in bore Hatcher 137 Open bolt/Fired 634479 February 3, 1928 634479 Shattered Receiver due to firing before bolt was closed due to broken firing pin Hatcher 138 Avis Bbl Blew 1145956 May 25, 1928 Avis Bbl blew out at chamber Hatcher 139 Bbl Split/Bad Ammo 467324 June 1, 1928 Bbl split due to bad ammo lot not authorized Hatcher 140 Bbl/Obstrctn 500348 August 15, 1928 bbl buldged & split 9" from muzzle due to obstruction in bore Hatcher 141 Excessive Pressure 590480 August 15, 1928 590480 Fractured Receiver due to excessive pressure & SHT Hatcher 142 Bbl/Obstrctn 267305 September 1, 1928 Bbl split from base to tip due to obstruction in bore Hatcher 143 Burnt Bbl 1137620 September 23, 1928 Bbl split at chamber due to burnt steel in barrel Hatcher 144 8mm Ammo 801548 January 1, 1929 801548 Shattered Receiver due to firing 8mm ammo in rifle Hatcher 145 235504 April 21, 1929 235504 Shattered Receiver Hatcher 146 Case failure/pressure 951718 May 8, 1929 951718 Bulged receiver/broken bolt due to excessive pressure/case failure Hatcher 147 Bbl/Obstrctn 235501 May 21, 1929 235501 Receiver ruptured due to obstruction in bore just ahead of chamber Hatcher 148 Bad Bbl 1226267 June 1, 1929 Section of Bbl blew out due to improper manufacturing/burnt bbl Hatcher 149 Bbl/Obstrctn 274272 June 1, 1929 274272 Shattered Receiver & bolt lugs sheared due to obstruction in bore Hatcher 150 Bbl/Obstrctn 723675 June 1, 1929 723675 Shattered Receiver & bolt broken due to obstruction in bore Hatcher 151 73153 June 9, 1929 73153 Fractured Receiver Hatcher 152 Ammo 73153 June 9, 1929 73153 Cartridge burst, causing receiver to fracture Hatcher 153 Imp Assembly 326222 July 1, 1929 326222 Shattered Receiver-improper assembly & SHT Hatcher 154 Ammo 87057 July 16, 1929 87057 Case failure, receiver had been bent subsequent to manufacture.rifle not hurt Hatcher 155 Bbl/Obstrctn 119855 August 16, 1929 bbl split from muzzle to FRSB/obstruction in bore Hatcher 156 Greased Round 711253 August 17, 1929 711253 Shattered Receiver & bolt due to grease on round Hatcher 157 Bolt Blew/Bore Obstrctn 1255473 August 26, 1929 Bolt blown to pieces by obstruction in bore Hatcher 158 Bbl/Obstrctn 1271923 September 3, 1929 Barrel burst at breech for 1 foot due to slag in bore Hatcher 159 Bad Bbl 902871 October 29, 1929 Bbl blew out completely due to bad steel in manufacturing/burnt Hatcher 160 Handloads 962540 August 15, 1965 Receiver had bolt lug imprint left from shooting handloads CO Smith 161 Handloads 477779 May 10, 1933 Privately owned blew up w/52 r16 & 150 gr bullet, receiver separated with bbl JB Comment
-
All very interesting, but we did fight WW1 with low numbered recievers. I don't recall soldiers refusing to use the rifles.Comment
-
Dang...! That's really good information! Thanks for sharing that!!!Comment
-
I note a number of burst barrels, obstructions in the bore, etc. And handloads.Comment
-
Comment