Old 30-06 cartridges

[Merc]

Here's one for you old army vets. I looked again at what is written on the standard army metal ammo box that my old .30-06 53 RA ammo came in that might indicate what kind of cartridges they are. Remember from my previous post that they are 3.350" long compared to my other rifle cartridges that are 3.250" long. The box has the following stamped into the side: "Cal. .30 M1 Ammunition Box." The following is stenciled right below in yellow lettering: "250 Cal 30 Linked 4AP 1TR Repkd Lot Sen-L-100206." The word "Linked" caught my attention. First question that pops - is 3.350" the correct size for M1 ammo? Second question(s): could "linked" indicate that these are machine gun cartridges and are they typically longer than a standard .30-06 rifle cartridge?

[kcw]

Here's one for you old army vets. I looked again at what is written on the standard army metal ammo box that my old .30-06 53 RA ammo came in that might indicate what kind of cartridges they are. Remember from my previous post that they are 3.350" long compared to my other rifle cartridges that are 3.250" long. The box has the following stamped into the side: "Cal. .30 M1 Ammunition Box." The following is stenciled right below in yellow lettering: "250 Cal 30 Linked 4AP 1TR Repkd Lot Sen-L-100206." The word "Linked" caught my attention. First question that pops - is 3.350" the correct size for M1 ammo? Second question(s): could "linked" indicate that these are machine gun cartridges and are they typically longer than a standard .30-06 rifle cartridge?

As the round commonly known as the 30.06 was originally designed and modified by the U.S. military, I would assume that commercial SAAMI specs for such things as OAL closely co-inside with GI specs. SAAMI specs call for a max OAL of 3.340". I just measured up 5 examples USGI 06' dated from 07' to 54' and they ranged from 3.30" to 3.39" which falls within SAMMI spec. That being said, concessions to standards are often made under war time pressures, or in times when supplies are otherwise in great demand. While your RA-53 ammo might be .010 over SAAMI max OAL spec it was no doubt function tested in all respects and proclaimed "good to go". Understand of course that the military usually didn't give two hoots about commercial specs, it just wants things built to its own specs, which may or may not align with commercial values. "Linked" indicated that the ammo inside was set up for use in a 30 cal machine gun. That being side, AP. tracer and common ball ammo were interchangeable for use in bolt actions , M-1 Garand, BAR & the 30 cal machine gun.

[Merc]

Good info. Thanks.

I've been thinking about how I could prevent muzzle wear by finding a simple and cheap way of keeping the aluminum cleaning rods centered in the rifle bore and preventing the rods from making contact with and damaging the internal muzzle wall area.

Being from an electrical background, I tend to think in terms of the hardware commonly used by electricians when improvising just about everything. There's a small plastic electrical insulating device that's shaped like a miniature funnel that's called an "anti short bushing." The bushings are used when terminating or splicing BX armored cable and they are designed to prevent the sharp edges of the armour from cutting through the insulation of the wire. The bushings are available at Home Depot, Lowes, etc.

I bought a package of anti short bushings while I was at HD today and tried one in my M1917 and it worked as I thought it would. The bushings are split so they're easy to install on the aluminum rod and fit snugly into a .30 caliber barrel tip. The plastic material is soft and won't harm the barrel tip and keeps the rod from touching the muzzle wall as long as the bushing is held firmly inside the barrel tip.

The part of the bushing that fits down inside the muzzle is a slightly tapered cone so it naturally holds the rod in the center of the muzzle. Press and hold the bushing in place inside the barrel tip with one hand while working the cleaning rod back and forth inside the bore with the other hand.

Here are the bushing details:

Name on package - No. O MM Bushings (aka Anti-Short Bushings)
Size - 5/16"
Qty. in bag - 35
Cost - $2.15 plus tax at Home Depot

The detergent method of cleaning a bore does a nice job. Good example: I could never quite get the bore of my 1944 Enfield No. 4 Mk 1 to come completely clean. No matter how much Hoppes #9 I ran through it, I always got a few powder/copper residue streaks on a dry patch.

I sprayed some cleaner/degreaser (Mean Green, 409, etc.) on a fresh patch until it was saturated and worked the bore a few times and repeated the process again with a different patch since the first one picked up lots of grime and came out really darkened. I followed up with a clean dry patch to remove any leftover detergent and the patch came out completely clean.

I followed that up with a fresh patch soaked with WD40 to displace any remaining detergent or moisture and ran another dry patch through to totally dry the bore followed by a final patch with a few drops of light gun oil added. The bore now shines like a mirror.

The #9 did what it was supposed to do which was to loosen up the powder and dissolve the copper residue from the grooves inside the bore and the cleaner/degreaser cleaned it all out by allowing all that foreign material to be lifted from the bore and absorbed by the patch. No flowing hot water was needed since I didn't have any corrosive salts to remove.

Note: Some say that the oil film should be removed from the bore prior to shooting because it affects accuracy, so I will run a bore snake with the front end dipped in #9 through the bore before heading out to the range. I'm not really convinced that oil removal is necessary since the first shot will probably vaporize the oil, but I'll do it anyway.

Merc

[Johnny P]

You can mix a multitude of things in the water, but it is the water that dissolves the potassium chlorate formed by firing corrosive primer ammunition. Hot water makes the bore dry faster.

[PhillipM]

You can mix a multitude of things in the water, but it is the water that dissolves the potassium chlorate formed by firing corrosive primer ammunition. Hot water makes the bore dry faster.

+1 ammonia and soap aren't needed. Boiling hot water also expands the micro cracks so the salt can be flushed away.

You are over thinking the application. All I use is a common household funnel and a teapot. I boil it on the stove and flush it in the kitchen sink.

For your 1917, remove the bolt and push patches from the chamber with a bore guide to the muzzle and let them drop off. That's how competition shooters do it with expensive target barrels. Tape on a 20 oz plastic beverage bottle if you want to be neat. Remove, cap and trash when done.

The muzzle bore guide is used when you have an M1 or similar where a rod can't be inserted from the chamber end.

What you need.

http://ads.midwayusa.com/product/613..._H2hoCPLjw_wcB


Since going with the OTIS System, basically a plastic coated cable with appropriate ends, I've dispensed with. bore guides.

Bore snakes scare me.

https://www.google.com/search?q=%22stuck+bore+snake%22&oq=%22stuck+bore+snake%22&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l3.31479j0j4&client=ms-android-att-us&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8

[Merc]

Interesting. I can see why. Bore snakes are useful and I use mine often for a quick clean while at the range. They come in specific sizes. I suspect the guy in the video may have been using an incorrect size. My .30-06 snake doesn't even begin to fit inside the bore of my 7mm Spanish Mauser. I can easily see how it would become stuck if I tried to force it through the bore. It's never a good idea to force anything.

[Johnny P]

Wouldn't pulling a bore snake through a bore fired with corrosive primer ammunition pick up the potassium chlorate and deposit it when used later.

[Merc]

Totally agree. Bore snakes shouldn't be used in a corrosive situation for that reason, but they are washable if placed in a coarse bag. Flushing is probably the most effective method of dealing with corrosive material. I personally don't think it's worth all the trouble and aggravation to shoot corrosive ammo.

[Merc]

I reloaded a few recently fired .30/06 PPU cases from my M 1917 and just out of curiosity, I pulled one of the bullets out of the old RA 1953 M1 military cartridges that we discussed here a few weeks ago just to measure the bullet weight and to see what type of powder they used.

The bullet is a flat based 150 grain FMJ. Like new.

The powder is of the stick variety but, of course the mfr and type are unknown. Looked ok.

The weight was 48 grains.

The COAL is 3.330 inches. This was a little longer than PPU case that I reloaded with boat tail FMJ bullets set at 3.250 inches.

I am leaning towards pulling all the old bullets, punching out all the old primers and replacing the 63 year old powder and primers while salvaging the cases and bullets. It's a shame not to make use of the cases and bullets but I don't trust the 63 year old old powder and primers since I don't know how they've been stored over the years. So, what say you?

Merc

[kcw]

Unless the powder has an acrid smell it should be just fine. Bas powder may also be sort of "dusty". Good powder typically has an acetone/alcohol smell to it, but an acrid smell means it's gone bad. Bad powder isn't usually dangerous, it usually just smokes a lot and gives poor performance from round to round. If the primers aren't DUD or "click bang" they should be good to go. I'm still shooting late 1930's dated Turk 8x57 ammo that I bought when that stuff was flooding the surplus market about 15 years ago (you could buy a 1,000 rounds, on strippers, in the bandoleers for $65 shipped, from CAI). EVERY round goes off and is amazingly accurate. If the powder and primers appear to be good I'd just shoot it and save the brass. Remember to ream out the primer pocket crimp in the first reloading. I believe that era M2 ball used IMR 4895 powder.
About a month ago I was given a full rol of l linked 1943 LC 06' machine gun ammo. For decades the stuff was draped over the ceiling joists up in the second floor a garage. I tried several rounds and they were DUD's. upon pulling the AP bullets (it was loaded 4AP & 1 tracer) I found the stick powder to have deteriorated and the primers had died. I'm certain the reason was that the stuff was bad was because it was hanging for 50 years in the top of an unvented garage where it got incredibly hot in the summer. Likewise the tracer component of the tracer rounds is dead too. On the other hand the bullets and brass are just fine for reloading, I'll just have to remember that the primer mix is corrosive, and therefore wash out my decapper accordingly.

[Tuna]

There is no way to tell which powder you have but with a weight of 48 grs. with a 150 gr. flat based bullet the odds are it's IMR 4895 which was the standard powder used through out WW2 and Korea. There is no reason to pull the bullets and dump the powder. It's fines just the way it is. The primers are not corrosive and the powder is standard in USGI M2 ball ammo. The 1917 is the strongest action the US military ever used in a rifle and your ammo was made for it so just take it out and shoot the Remington made ammo and enjoy it.

[tmark]

I have fired ammo in my Garand dated 1942 without problems. I shaked the cartridge and heard powder sloshing in the case so I knew it wasn't solid or clotting.

[Merc]

Thanks guys. The powder looks and smells fine. I bought the cartridges a few years ago at an estate sale. They were stored loosely in a regulation US Army ammo box from WW2. The lid gasket is still there but isn't in the greatest shape. There's no evidence of any moisture damage to cartridges or box so I can assume the ammo was stored in a dry environment and should still be useable. The brass was clean and had only the darkened patina of age. Kinda a shame to shoot these relics, but what else would you do with them?

I'm curious about the 3.330" COAL of the 1953 RA ammo.

Sierra's reloading manual specifies that a COAL of 3.250" should apply to a .30-06 case reloaded with 150 grain FMJ BT bullets. This is also the COAL of the factory loaded PPU cartridges I bought that are also loaded with 150 grain FMJ BT bullets. The only differences in the 1953 RA ammo vs the modern commercial ammo are the powder used and the bullets are FMJ flat based instead of FMJ boat tails.

Was the longer length a military spec for M1 ammo? Should there be any concern of shooting a slightly longer cartridge in a M1917? The length of the 1953 RA ammo can easily be adjusted from 3.330" to 3.250" but is it desirable or necessary to shorten them?

Merc

[kcw]

They're just fine @ 3.30" OAL. I just took a quick measure on a few mixed USGI M2 & AP (circa 1943-1967) rounds and they come in anywhere between 3.310 & 3.340. The commercial 150gr FMJBT bullet and the 150gr USGI spec FMJFB M2 bullet are two different animals. For starters, the two designs no doubt have different ogives. Ogive shape needs to be considered relative to the distance between of the leading surface of the bullet, and the bullet's contacting the lands. Most of the time you want at least a minimum "jump" between the ogive of a jacketed bullet and the lands. Commercial loaders tend to load on the conservative side of things in deference to safety issues.

[Merc]

They're just fine @ 3.30" OAL. I just took a quick measure on a few mixed USGI M2 & AP (circa 1943-1967) rounds and they come in anywhere between 3.310 & 3.340. The commercial 150gr FMJBT bullet and the 150gr USGI spec FMJFB M2 bullet are two different animals. For starters, the two designs no doubt have different ogives. Ogive shape needs to be considered relative to the distance between of the leading surface of the bullet, and the bullet's contacting the lands. Most of the time you want at least a minimum "jump" between the ogive of a jacketed bullet and the lands. Commercial loaders tend to load on the conservative side of things in deference to safety issues.

kwc,

Thank you.

Merc