Old 30-06 cartridges

[Richard H Brown Jr]

'53 .30-06 M2 ball? Do you really want to shoot 63 yr old cartridges that *MAY* be worth more to collectors, than the cost to replace the box of what you have?

RHB

[PhillipM]

They're just fine @ 3.30" OAL. I just took a quick measure on a few mixed USGI M2 & AP (circa 1943-1967) rounds and they come in anywhere between 3.310 & 3.340. The commercial 150gr FMJBT bullet and the 150gr USGI spec FMJFB M2 bullet are two different animals. For starters, the two designs no doubt have different ogives. Ogive shape needs to be considered relative to the distance between of the leading surface of the bullet, and the bullet's contacting the lands. Most of the time you want at least a minimum "jump" between the ogive of a jacketed bullet and the lands. Commercial loaders tend to load on the conservative side of things in deference to safety issues.

I was taught by Jim Owens www.jarheadtop.com, to ignore OAL and buy the Hornady, formerly Stoney Point, comparitor which measures from the ogive to the case head. He had us make up seven rounds each from just touching the lands to .045" off the lands and then we fired them slung up prone in normal high power style, except for a tall bag under the support hand. He explained two accuracy nodes would be found, and he was right.

Modern boat tail hollow points have a little variation in OAL due to the manufacturing process as I found out measuring just the bullets out of the box. I've never done meplat trimming where the nose of the bullet is trimmed to make everything uniform and not sure it does any good.

KCW, I know you are vastly more experienced than I about cartridges, I just wanted to write it down for the newer folks.

[Merc]

'53 .30-06 M2 ball? Do you really want to shoot 63 yr old cartridges that *MAY* be worth more to collectors, than the cost to replace the box of what you have?

RHB

I hear you. I'm a bullet collector too and considered that as well. It took me several years of searching at the annual Ohio Civil War Show in Mansfield to assemble a 20 round cartridge box of 1880s 45/70 cartridges to display with my Trapdoor. I have a nice collection of Civil War musket and minie' balls that I personally dug in West Virginia. It would surprise me to learn that post Korean War military ammo has collector value. I'll poke around and see if there's a market.

Merc

[fguffey]

http://www.odcmp.org/1101/USGI.pdf

scroll down to Remington Arms; the first safe date is listed as 1952 meaning 1953 did not have corrosive primers.

F. Guffey

[fguffey]

As the round commonly known as the 30.06 was originally designed and modified by the U.S. military, I would assume that commercial SAAMI specs for such things as OAL closely co-inside with GI specs. SAAMI specs call for a max OAL of 3.340". I just measured up 5 examples USGI 06' dated from 07' to 54' and they ranged from 3.30" to 3.39" which falls within SAMMI spec. That being said, concessions to standards are often made under war time pressures, or in times when supplies are otherwise in great demand. While your RA-53 ammo might be .010 over SAAMI max OAL spec it was no doubt function tested in all respects and proclaimed "good to go". Understand of course that the military usually didn't give two hoots about commercial specs, it just wants things built to its own specs, which may or may not align with commercial values. "Linked" indicated that the ammo inside was set up for use in a 30 cal machine gun. That being side, AP. tracer and common ball ammo were interchangeable for use in bolt actions , M-1 Garand, BAR & the 30 cal machine gun.

It is assumed but not true; the ammo for all 30/06 ammo came from the same box but the chambers were not the same. The M1 Garand chamber was larger in diameter at the rear by about .00025”; that made three different chambers for the 30/06.

When measuring 3006 ammo always check the case heads.

F. Guffey

[Merc]

I tried the throat measurement method on my M1917 Winchester that compares the length of an unfired cartridge to the length of a loose bullet that is pressed back into its case with the rifle's bolt. In both instances, I used the 1953 RA M1 cartridges. The OAL of the unfired cartridge measured 3.330" and the OAL of the loose bullet that was pressed back into its case with the rifle's bolt measured 3.379". That's a difference, or a distance of .049". What would be considered a normal distance? The M1 cartridge seems to fit in the M1917's receiver like it was made for it.

The one thing that's really noticeable between the 1953 RA M1 bullets and the .30-06 commercial bullets is the ogive. The modern commercial .30-06 bullet is wider closer to the point while the M1 is narrower closer to the point. Did the ogive of the M1 bullet of WW2 and Korea resemble the ogive of the .30-06 bullet of WW1?

Merc

[Tuna]

Simple answer is yes the WW1 is the same as WW2 and Korea. 150 gr. flat base FMJ. Just cupronickel instead of copper and zinc jacket. That is why they fit in your 1917 like they were made for it. Oh that's right they were made for it and the 03, BAR, 1919 and M1. You are over worried about nothing really. Just shoot the RA 53 or sell them if you can to a collector and buy new ammo and shoot that. Your 1917 will shoot any commercial 30-06 ammo made as well as any surplus 30-06. Take your rifle out and enjoy it.

[Merc]

The best part about owning this and other old military rifles is shooting them. A close second is learning everything there is to know about them.

[RC20]

I think a bore guide for a 1917 is going too far.

Not sure I buy it for any gun, but a 1917? Maybe the only plus is keeping dripping off the gun.

I have read dozens of methods of cleaning rifles, no two are the same. Common sense seems to indicate that a coated rod that is on bearings is the way to go. After that what is worse than a bullet craning alone at 2400 fps with erosive powder pushing it and heat and flames in the almost melt settle range?

They seemed to shoot just fine in the old days without a bore guide!

[Johnny P]

As the others have mentioned, it is the water that dissolves the potassium chloride formed when the primers containing potassium chlorate are fired. Potassium chloride is virtually the same thing as common table salt, and attracts moisture when the humidity gets above the 50/60% level. Some shooters swear by Windex, and it is in a handy pump bottle, but it it 96% water and that is what dissolves the salts.

[kcw]

I think a bore guide for a 1917 is going too far.

Not sure I buy it for any gun, but a 1917? Maybe the only plus is keeping dripping off the gun.

I have read dozens of methods of cleaning rifles, no two are the same. Common sense seems to indicate that a coated rod that is on bearings is the way to go. After that what is worse than a bullet craning alone at 2400 fps with erosive powder pushing it and heat and flames in the almost melt settle range?

They seemed to shoot just fine in the old days without a bore guide!

The first center fire rifle I obtained was a Winchester P-14. I FRETTED about shooting the barrel out from regular use, and also the effect of corrosive ammo. A far more experienced hand instructed me in how to clean cordite residue out (next worst thing to black powder) and told me not to worry about shooting the bore out from over use. He was right, I've gone through a few thousand rounds of 303 surplus over the past 40 years. Cleaned it accordingly, and I can't see any significant wear in the bore. Still groups as well as it ever did.

[Merc]

I attended the famous Ohio Civil War Show in Mansfield, OH on Saturday. Anyone on this forum who lives within a day's drive of Mansfield should try to spend a day there. It's well worth the effort.

I spoke to the seller who handles thousands of collectible bullets and asked him if he was interested in buying 1953 RA 30-06 bullets and he declined saying that there's no market for them.

I was able to purchase a Winchester bayonet and scabbard and an old sling. Not much else to shop for, at least as far as the M1917 rifle is concerned.

Merc

[Merc]

The first center fire rifle I obtained was a Winchester P-14. I FRETTED about shooting the barrel out from regular use, and also the effect of corrosive ammo. A far more experienced hand instructed me in how to clean cordite residue out (next worst thing to black powder) and told me not to worry about shooting the bore out from over use. He was right, I've gone through a few thousand rounds of 303 surplus over the past 40 years. Cleaned it accordingly, and I can't see any significant wear in the bore. Still groups as well as it ever did.

I'm glad that your P14 isn't showing any signs of wear. Their actions were among the strongest ever built and you have a thorough understanding of the cleaning required to prevent corrosion. I occasionally hear about worn M1917 barrels that cause problems such as keyholing, flyers, etc. but it's hard to say what caused all the wear since we'll never know the history of the rifle and the abuse it may have been exposed to in its early years.

I plan to have fun shooting all of my military rifles for hopefully many years to come. I always inspect the bore after each cleaning although it isn't a bad idea to occasionally check headspace and throat erosion. Barrels have a predictable life span depending on how many rounds have been fired through them. It would be interesting to know if there was something a gun owner could do to extend the life of a barrel.

Merc

[IditarodJoe]

It would be interesting to know if there was something a gun owner could do to extend the life of a barrel.

Just spitballing here, but here are a few things that seem fairly obvious to me:

1. Limit the round count through your "historic" barrels. Restrict your high-volume shooting shooting to rifles with modern barrels that can easily be replaced.
2. Clean the bores of old barrels carefully, avoiding harsh solvents and cleaning methods. Thoroughly remove any corrosive by-products.
3. When storing old rifles for long periods, coat the bores thoroughly with a good, rust-inhibiting grease. Store in a proper environment.
4. Shoot only non-jacketed, lead bullets through the bores you wish to protect and, when possible, shoot lower pressure rounds.

What do others have to say on the matter?

[Merc]

Joe,

All valid points especially limiting round count. My goal this year is to control the urge to keep on firing away at the range. Last time out, I brought my M1917 Winchester and my 1944 Enfield No. 4 Mk 1*. I fired five rounds through each rifle, consistently hit the target, packed up and went home. Last year, I probably would have fired a box of twenty through each rifle. The urge to keep shooting is still there but now it's time to consider the barrel life. This year, fewer trips to the range and five rounds per rifle, max.

Merc