Gewehr 88 Model 1888 Commission Rifle

[ldpfeifer]

More pictures.....Lyle

[ldpfeifer]

Looking at the chamber with the bore scope, we thought the sharp transition in the barrel was a lining, but it goes all the way to the end and is solid, but it is just that, a sharp stop mark. The shoulder is not very pronounced as can be seen in the pictures, and the marks on the bayonet lug suggest this gun belonged to a reserve unit. I am not sure where my uncle picked it up. He was in a mechanized unit that came along after the battles and would either get stuff running again or destroy it so it could not be used. The only thing he ever talked much about was the "Hitler" style staff car they acquired and drove for some time before they came home. Must of belonged to someone important, they just came across it with a big hole blown in the back. Patched it up enough to drive it he said. I only wish I would have ask him about this gun. I know he sent home K98's but this is the odd ball. Imagine if this thing could talk, all that it has seen.......Thanks again for any and all help. Lyle

[ldpfeifer]

I took a piece of lead and tapped it into the end of the barrel. It measured .311 to .313. I also used a ball gauge, about 4 inches in, with the same results. I measure the 8mm Remington rounds and they are .321 if memory served me right.

[kcw]

Definitely an 1888 Commission rifle. I think it's likely that the stock was cut off for "duffle bag" purposes, with the idea that it would be reattached once getting back home. On 98K's the cut was commonly done under the rear band. Lyle, have you tried chambering an unloaded case? Disregarding the S stamp, I would think that if you lightly lube the neck of a 8x57 case with no bullet in it, you should , with some force, be able move the bolt forward enough to chamber the casing even in a VERY tight, unmodified chamber ( a piece of brass that had a .323 bullet in it will be a bit larger diameter neck than one with a .318 bullet, but it should swag down if there's no obstruction in the neck, you may wish to chamfer the outer edge of the case mouth). If you can't get that to happen I would have to assume that there's something stuck in either the chamber neck or chamber itself. I just spoke with a friend who has an unmodified 88 carbine. He says that he can't fully chamber .323 rounds, but they do go almost to the point where the bolt starts to turn down on the 318 ammo..

[kcw]

I've never tried paraffin (I think I read somewhere that paraffin shrinks when cooled), but you might be able to make a "plug" of the chamber neck area. If that is a broken shell neck in there the ID should be somewhere around .330 (according to a fired case I have), maybe a couple thousands larger considering that it's still expanded.

[ldpfeifer]

I ordered the casting material today. When I tried the 7.62x39 casing, it went in about an inch and would not go further. You can see a ring around about half of it about 1 inch down where it stopped and I tried to force it with a little more pressure. The 8mm will go right up to the shoulder and no further. I got a .303 Savage round in about half way, the bullet being .308. I would think if a casing is stuck in there, I would be able to see it or someone has pulled it clean and has worked it with some type of tool to smooth it out. Again the shoulder is not very distinct but there. The bore scope would only go so far and not into the barrel and the head of the scope is larger than the bore of the gun. I used a Milwaukee Digital inspection camera to take the pictures, but a more expensive bore scope to look in the chamber area.
There is a notch just outside the chamber on the right side as you look down the barrel, it is cut right up next to the chamber but has the thinnest edge on it. I was thinking this is odd and how could they leave such an edge when this was built. Not sure if you have an 88, but could this be part of a spent cartridge that may be stuck? I really don't see a definitive ring all the way around and hate to start prying on that thin ring as I do believe the notch has to do with the bolt locking. It still has some 60 plus year old grease in the chamber area. I attached another picture.(Picture is upside down.)
Lyle

[kcw]

I ordered the casting material today. When I tried the 7.62x39 casing, it went in about an inch and would not go further. You can see a ring around about half of it about 1 inch down where it stopped and I tried to force it with a little more pressure. The 8mm will go right up to the shoulder and no further. I got a .303 Savage round in about half way, the bullet being .308. I would think if a casing is stuck in there, I would be able to see it or someone has pulled it clean and has worked it with some type of tool to smooth it out. Again the shoulder is not very distinct but there. The bore scope would only go so far and not into the barrel and the head of the scope is larger than the bore of the gun. I used a Milwaukee Digital inspection camera to take the pictures, but a more expensive bore scope to look in the chamber area.
There is a notch just outside the chamber on the right side as you look down the barrel, it is cut right up next to the chamber but has the thinnest edge on it. I was thinking this is odd and how could they leave such an edge when this was built. Not sure if you have an 88, but could this be part of a spent cartridge that may be stuck? I really don't see a definitive ring all the way around and hate to start prying on that thin ring as I do believe the notch has to do with the bolt locking. It still has some 60 plus year old grease in the chamber area. I attached another picture.(Picture is upside down.)
Lyle

If I'm reading you correctly, this pic is looking at the butt end of the barrel at the chamber end? You're telling me that if you insert an 8x57 factory round into there, it only goes in until it contacts the shoulder ? Assuming that's the situation, I cut off the unsupported end of a spent Turk case. You can tell which portion was inside the chamber and that which was hanging out against the bolt face at firing by the markings left on the case caused by firing. Basically I'm left with the forward end of the case, the length of which should be roughly flush with the rear end of the barrel. If I insert an 8mm factory round into that open end it will only go as far as the forward end of the shoulder. A 7.62x39 will go in far enough to scribe the lower end of the shoulder. Of course the Turk case is made of BRASS and likely thicker than a steel one at that point, therefore it wouldn't surprise me if your test casings went in a bit deeper than mine. Does "notch" possibly = a crack in a steel case. The most common failure on a rimless case is right at the end of the barrel. If that is indeed a broken shell in there, I'm surprised that somebody didn't remove it with a broken shell extractor. On the other, if that rifle had been handed out to something such as the "Hitler Youth" corp or the "Volkstrum" (people's Army) in the last days of the war, they may very well have not been supplied with a remover. And of course if the gun no longer worked, there then came an opportune and justified moment to throw it down and either run like hell or surrender before the guy in the Sherman tank ran you over! (We have my mother's cousin's last letter he ever sent home. He mentions going through German villages in the Ruhr while sitting on top of a U.S. tank. As they went past old men holding their personal rifles and shotguns in a show of defiance against the allied troops, he and his fellows pointed their own weapons at them while shouting "NIEN, NIEN, NIEN!". If anyone did fire it was usually a 14 year old, those older guys, many of them vets of WWI and before, knew when to "fold'em"). Anyway, if that is indeed a broken case, all you may need is a extractor. I think Midway has them for the 8x57 for around $13. You might want soak the area down in penetrating oil before you use the remover. Maybe jam a piece of "cork" or something in the chamber and fill it up with oil with the barrel pointed down. I've also removed stuck cases with a machinist's "backout" device. Run an appropriately sized backout into the case and then pop it, and the broken case with it, out with a piece of round stock (ie. "all thread") from the muzzle end.

[ldpfeifer]

I pulled the gun down and here are the markings on the barrel. I could not believe how clean the metal was under the heat shroud! It says:

7.7m/m
46
3.30
679

About 3/4 inch above that is the initials: E.V.N. followed by either number 0 or letter O.
Have you ever removed the barrel completely? It looks to thread in.
Lyle

[kcw]

7.7mm comes out about a .303 bore. Add a .005 grove on either side and you have a .318 barrel. The shield wasn't something normally removed in the field for cleaning. A result of that is that it's not uncommon to find a good deal of rust under there due to water leaking in and not being attended too.

[Rock]

Here are some pictures of the gun. The date is 1890, I think I put 1891 in another post and you can see the "S" but under the "S" is also a CE. The serial number is 1540 with a letter "P" under the serial number, except the bolt is marked 3XXX.

Looks like a Gew98 Mauser Lange Vizier rear sight . Never saw one of those on a Gew88 before....

[randy langford]

More and more it is looking like a broken shell in the chamber.

[ldpfeifer]

Looking at this picture, from the chamber forward. I have a notch on the right side of the chamber(the picture is upside down) and the rest of the area is raised like a rimmed cartridge. The 8mm is not rimmed. If anyone has a 88, could you look and see if yours is flush all the way across or is it raised around the chamber hole like this one. The measurements all quite small compared to the outside measurements of my Remington 8mm.
Could this be a broken rimmed cartridge, as in some one use the wrong ammo?
Again, thanks in advance for the help.
Lyle

[kcw]

Looking at this picture, from the chamber forward. I have a notch on the right side of the chamber(the picture is upside down) and the rest of the area is raised like a rimmed cartridge. The 8mm is not rimmed. If anyone has a 88, could you look and see if yours is flush all the way across or is it raised around the chamber hole like this one. The measurements all quite small compared to the outside measurements of my Remington 8mm.
Could this be a broken rimmed cartridge, as in some one use the wrong ammo?
Again, thanks in advance for the help.
Lyle

I'm thinking that's just the extractor "cutout"; accommodates the front end of the extractor. On the subject of the Lange Vizer rear sight being on that rifle, I wonder if that gun isn't an example ersatz Volkssturmgewehr. There were the half dozen or so "official" Volksstrumgewehr designs which are well documented, but I wonder if some enterprising armorer didn't make use of available surplus WWI era "roller coaster" sights to get some 88 Commission rifles; which were stacked up in a repair depot, back in the fight toward the end of the war.

[kcw]

BTW Lyle, your grandfather was probably with an equipment reclamation battalion or company. There were a number of specialties throughout the military in the areas of reclamation. Everything, both ours and the enemy's too, had to be cleaned up eventually, but of course there were priorities such as salvaging equipment that could be quickly righted for reuse (ie trucks). My father talked about mating the useable front and rear ends of damaged 2.5 ton trucks that they found abandoned, and then using them for his own battalion's purposes.

[ldpfeifer]

I have to head back to work for a few days. The casting material should be here when I get back and will attempt to see if I can free the casing from the barrel. Will post if I am successful and pictures also, or order the extractor next. Thanks again everyone.
Lyle