Another 1897 Trench Gun Question

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  • foxfirerodandgun
    Junior Member
    • Oct 2010
    • 23
    #1

    Another 1897 Trench Gun Question

    I didn't want to hijack the thread started by Vernon Morris so I started this one. OK, here is my problem. I have a Winchester 1897 Trench Gun, SN - E947***. I have Bruce Canfields' book "United States Combat Shotguns" and have read the section about the '97 a couple times and referenced the tables in the back of the book. Everything concerning correctness seems to fall into place except one important thing. The barrel is not tapered, marked "cyl", has the Winchester stamp and correct roll stamps, measures 21 1/4 inches from the closed breech face to the very end, a flat brass bead of sorts, and is marked "40" indicating the year it was made. However, it does not have the Flaming Bomb on the top near the receiver.

    The stock is marked WB with crossed cannons below on the left side and is the correct one for the WW II 97. It has the correct U.S. & Flaming Bomb on the left side of the receiver; correct six hole hand guard and bayonet assembly and I can not find any evidence of it being shimmed; I can also see one of the notches on the underside of the barrel; it is has a 18 groove hand guard, and parkerized. With all of these qualifications seemingly being correct, does the missing Flaming Bomb on the top of the barrel definitely mean that the barrel is not correct? Many thanks for any input that anyone would care to share.

    James
    Tags: None
    • joem
      Senior Member, Deceased
      • Aug 2009
      • 11835
      #2
      I am or was under the impression the barrel length should be 20". I have a riot 97 with a 20 " barrel. I'm certainly not a expert on trench guns bt any means.

        Comment

        • scosgt
          Senior Member
          • Mar 2011
          • 673
          #3
          Originally posted by foxfirerodandgun
          I didn't want to hijack the thread started by Vernon Morris so I started this one. OK, here is my problem. I have a Winchester 1897 Trench Gun, SN - E947***. I have Bruce Canfields' book "United States Combat Shotguns" and have read the section about the '97 a couple times and referenced the tables in the back of the book. Everything concerning correctness seems to fall into place except one important thing. The barrel is not tapered, marked "cyl", has the Winchester stamp and correct roll stamps, measures 21 1/4 inches from the closed breech face to the very end, a flat brass bead of sorts, and is marked "40" indicating the year it was made. However, it does not have the Flaming Bomb on the top near the receiver.

          The stock is marked WB with crossed cannons below on the left side and is the correct one for the WW II 97. It has the correct U.S. & Flaming Bomb on the left side of the receiver; correct six hole hand guard and bayonet assembly and I can not find any evidence of it being shimmed; I can also see one of the notches on the underside of the barrel; it is has a 18 groove hand guard, and parkerized. With all of these qualifications seemingly being correct, does the missing Flaming Bomb on the top of the barrel definitely mean that the barrel is not correct? Many thanks for any input that anyone would care to share.

          James
          The WB stamp and six row handguard are wrong for this gun. They would go on a gun with a lower serial number, yours should be 4 row and GHD.That being said, there is some discrepancy in serial numbers, so this statement is not absolute, but most likely the truth.

          The barrel on the other hand is a no brainer. It should be dated "42", as that is when most all of the trench guns were made. The lack of a flaming bomb is a dead giveaway. It is probably a replacement barrel. It is a little odd, because they probably did not make many replacement trench barrels in 1940.
          However, it is most likely that you have a put together gun. 6 row handguards and WB stamps are most usually seen on guns with the US and no bomb on the receiver, although there is some crossover, but most of those guns would be seen in the under 940,000 range.

          I can not explain the barrel, are there two "pinch marks" for where the barrel band would mount? If so, it is probably a cut down longer barrel. They did have 26" CYL barrels as I recall. They also took whatever they had in stock and used it up, so the barrel would not be "impossible" IF it had the flaming bomb, but the problem here is that other parts of the gun are not correct.

          Post some photos, that would make it a lot easier.

            Comment

            • foxfirerodandgun
              Junior Member
              • Oct 2010
              • 23
              #4
              Thank everyone for their input. I measured the barrel by opening the action and measuring from the very end from the rear edge of the shell rim recess is to the very end of the barrel with the tape line inside of the barrel. I have been in communication with Bruce Canfield and he also feels that this '97 is not an original trench gun. At any rate here are some pictures.

              James
              Last edited by foxfirerodandgun; 09-19-2015, 06:58.

                Comment

                • foxfirerodandgun
                  Junior Member
                  • Oct 2010
                  • 23
                  #5
                  Here are a few more pictures.

                  Last edited by foxfirerodandgun; 09-19-2015, 06:58.

                    Comment

                    • foxfirerodandgun
                      Junior Member
                      • Oct 2010
                      • 23
                      #6
                      And a few more.

                      Last edited by foxfirerodandgun; 09-19-2015, 06:57.

                        Comment

                        • foxfirerodandgun
                          Junior Member
                          • Oct 2010
                          • 23
                          #7
                          And the last ones. Thanks for looking and any additional input.


                          James
                          Last edited by foxfirerodandgun; 09-19-2015, 07:02.

                            Comment

                            • scosgt
                              Senior Member
                              • Mar 2011
                              • 673
                              #8
                              YIKES!
                              A picture is worth many words. Where to start?
                              Finish is not original
                              The bayonet lug came out of a drum of rusted out de-milled lugs. Someone attached a repro fence to it and refinished it. (BTW it is 4 row not 6 as you stated).
                              The front collar is not numbered. IT is not original to that receiver. The barrel should not have a bead. The mag tube is off a take down gun, it should not have the lever. There should not be a barrel band. That basically answers the barrel question, it did not come with that gun. Period.
                              The stock is heavily refinished. Unknown if the cartouches are original, but they are NOT original to THAT gun.

                              So basically what you have is a put together humped up gun. Sorry for the bad news.
                              There is a very similar one on GB right now. Maybe someone is humping up these guns. There is a dealer in Florida who seems to have a lot of these at shows I have attended.

                              The receiver was almost certainly a trench when it was made. The problem here is that the rest of the gun does not go with that receiver, and the bayonet adapter is not real - the lug is, the fence and attachment method not.

                                Comment

                                • SPEEDGUNNER
                                  Senior Member
                                  • Sep 2009
                                  • 729
                                  #9
                                  What Bruce said...alll of it. I hate it when I see a new guy get taken....
                                  "There's a race of men that don't fit in,
                                  A race that can't stay still;
                                  So they break the hearts of kith and kin,
                                  And they roam the world at will." - Robert Service

                                    Comment

                                    • foxfirerodandgun
                                      Junior Member
                                      • Oct 2010
                                      • 23
                                      #10
                                      I would like to thank everyone for their direct, and honest, responses to my inquiry. scogst - Yep, it is a four row hand guard. I must have had a brain cramp when I typed 6 row. SPEEDGUNNER - Thank you for your input and concern. It's really not a case of being taken, it's more like preventing someone else from being taken. It's a rather complicated situation involving a friend and a favor being returned. Thanks again everyone. This forum, site, and you folks are GREAT!!

                                      James

                                        Comment

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