Still having head position/cheek-weld issues w/ Garand....

[Mr. X]

The advice from Maury is pretty good. The key is establishing a consistent physical posture and natural point of aim vis-a-vis the rifle on every shot, and making a mental checklist on every shot.

One way to establish NPA is to close your eyes before the shot. If you open them and the front sight is way off target, move your body, not the rifle. Also take into account the entire sight picture -- not just the post. Are the protective wings centered in the aperture also? Is the entire target frame centered in the aperture? If not you'll have a good front sight image but poor sight alignment and you'll throw shots.

Do you shoot (assuming you are right handed) with your right leg bent as many shooters do? I don't recommend this. If your leg is not in the exact same position on each shot, your shoulder and head will not be in the same position either. I shoot straight-legged, boot tips on the ground, for consistent position.

Finally let's look at the rifle. You have some tight 3-shot clusters, but in inconsistent groupings. Is there any play in your front and back sights? Is there any play in your receiver to stock lockup? Also, very important -- is your front handguard slopping back and forth? This will cause thrown shots for sure.

Are you shooting M2 ball or handloads? Most handloads with run of the mill Hornady 150 FMJ can outperform the best M2 ball. I use 44.0 of 4064 or 4895 for 100-200 yard shooting.

[mdoerner]

The advice from Maury is pretty good. The key is establishing a consistent physical posture and natural point of aim vis-a-vis the rifle on every shot, and making a mental checklist on every shot.

One way to establish NPA is to close your eyes before the shot. If you open them and the front sight is way off target, move your body, not the rifle. Also take into account the entire sight picture -- not just the post. Are the protective wings centered in the aperture also? Is the entire target frame centered in the aperture? If not you'll have a good front sight image but poor sight alignment and you'll throw shots.

Do you shoot (assuming you are right handed) with your right leg bent as many shooters do? I don't recommend this. If your leg is not in the exact same position on each shot, your shoulder and head will not be in the same position either. I shoot straight-legged, boot tips on the ground, for consistent position.

Finally let's look at the rifle. You have some tight 3-shot clusters, but in inconsistent groupings. Is there any play in your front and back sights? Is there any play in your receiver to stock lockup? Also, very important -- is your front handguard slopping back and forth? This will cause thrown shots for sure.

Are you shooting M2 ball or handloads? Most handloads with run of the mill Hornady 150 FMJ can outperform the best M2 ball. I use 44.0 of 4064 or 4895 for 100-200 yard shooting.

OK, I was using my recently re-barreled Garand in .308 w/ Federal Hi-power boxed rounds from CMP, w/ 180 Grain SMK's. I don't think it was the ammo...or the gun. New CMP stock, no slop in the front hand guard. The rear hand guard may slide around possibly, as I had to relieve it to get it on the rifle, but I will have to investigate further. This rifle has a NM front post, but service rear sights. I do have some MINOR slop in the front sight/gas cylinder, and I will get around to peening the splines, but right now I don't believe that's the problem. I do not shoot w/ my right leg bent (used to do that, now I don't). I wasn't able to get a good angle relative to the target with my shooting mat, as I had shooters to both sides of me. I was turned only about 5-10 degrees rather than the 25-35 I've seen in the films.

I'm thinking Maury is right, it's still my noggin that's the problem. I've also adjusted the sling catch on my shooting coat upwards to about as high as it can go, so I get more elevation with my hand against the ferrule. That's one of the reasons I had to "choke up" on the stock, I couldn't get the front sight up w/o muscling the gun on the target w/ my hand against the ferrule before, but then it would slide down under fire. Taking a 1-2 sets of holes out of the sling I think will take care of this. The only issue with this is I have to drop my right shoulder a little to get the correct elevation. I'm not certain my shoulders are level with the ground when I do this, but then again, I wasn't sure if they were level before anyways.

I think I also need to tilt my head backwards a little, as I am certain I'm not looking through the optical center of my glasses, causing other sighting issues. Although this is slightly uncomfortable, I think that may be better than putting earplugs under the bridge of my glasses, as they will certainly come unglued under recoil. As long as I can lock my noggin in that position, the consistent sight picture should eliminate the wandering groups I'm seeing.

I will also try to see where the front sights are after recoil, as there may be other issues with my positioning.

Thanks for your help, I've got a whole month to practice before the next match....

Mike D
Thanks for

[Maury Krupp]

OK, I was using my recently re-barreled Garand in .308 w/ Federal Hi-power boxed rounds from CMP, w/ 180 Grain SMK's.

While you're more than likely correct it's not the ammo a 180gr is about the normal limit for bullet weight in an M1. Federal Gold Medal Match with a 168MK or a handload of 41.5gr IMR4895 or 42.5 IMR4064 with the 168 is the "industry standard" .308 M1/M14 match load. The same powder charge and a Speer 125TNT makes a nice, low recoil, accurate enough load for 100-200yd that won't beat you up and induce a flinch.

Mentioning getting beat up, besides its help in obtaining a repeatable head position, another reason to try for a good solid spot weld on your thumb is it keeps that thumb from getting a running start on smacking you. You and the rifle recoil as a unit.

New CMP stock, no slop in the front hand guard. The rear hand guard may slide around possibly, as I had to relieve it to get it on the rifle, but I will have to investigate further.

For a Service Grade rifle you *want* some slop in both handguards to allow for barrel expansion. The Front Handguard Ferrule should not touch the Gas Cylinder; the Rear Handguard should float on the Rear Handguard Clip and Lower Band. Otherwise expect your shots to climb up as the barrel heats.

This rifle has a NM front post, but service rear sights. I do have some MINOR slop in the front sight/gas cylinder, and I will get around to peening the splines,

I don't like the NM post but that's just personal preference. It's too skinny for me; not enough to look at.

I do not shoot w/ my right leg bent (used to do that, now I don't). I wasn't able to get a good angle relative to the target with my shooting mat, as I had shooters to both sides of me. I was turned only about 5-10 degrees rather than the 25-35 I've seen in the films.

You may want to re-think the bent leg position.

Bringing your right leg up gets you off your gut and on your side. That makes breathing easier and reduces the up-down movement. It makes stretching your left arm out and getting it under the rifle easier too. You get a slightly higher position which may help get a more upright level head position. You can make minor elevation corrections by moving your thigh forwards and backwards; minor windage by moving your leg left or right. Curling your lower body around gets you more mass behind the rifle.

I've also adjusted the sling catch on my shooting coat upwards to about as high as it can go

Sling hooks are not allowed for Service Rifle or Games (CMP Rule 6.9.4 and NRA Rule 3.13(b)). Many SR shooters put the sling above the pulse pad where it works almost as good as a sling hook but stays within the rules.

The only issue with this is I have to drop my right shoulder a little to get the correct elevation. I'm not certain my shoulders are level with the ground when I do this, but then again, I wasn't sure if they were level before anyways.

Again the bent leg may help here. I don't know how important level shoulders are (if at all)?

I think I also need to tilt my head backwards a little, as I am certain I'm not looking through the optical center of my glasses, causing other sighting issues. Although this is slightly uncomfortable, I think that may be better than putting earplugs under the bridge of my glasses, as they will certainly come unglued under recoil. As long as I can lock my noggin in that position, the consistent sight picture should eliminate the wandering groups I'm seeing.

You might try some masking tape to hold the plugs in place. Or rolling up more cheek skin/fat to get a higher, more upright head position. But *IF* you can get a comfortable, relaxed *REPEATABLE* head position without them that's OK too.

I will also try to see where the front sights are after recoil, as there may be other issues with my positioning.

The front sight should be back at your NPA. If it's someplace else note if it's the same someplace shot-to-shot. Also note where the shot lands relative to where the sights landed (eg, when the sights were high left the shots were low left or whatever). Different places can mean different things. It can help isolate problems and whether it's the same problem each time.

If it's at all possible at your next match, grab one of those guys with a DR or P100 pin on his hat and ask him to coach you. He'll see things that you don't even know you're doing. You can't fix it if you don't know about it

Maury

[jacksimonton]

I went through each post and found anyone hasn't discussed regarding hearing protection. We need to very aware of shooting and hunting hearing protection. If we don't care about it, then we will suffer from the noise-induced hearing loss. If we shoot the gun, then it produces sounds between 120dB to 150dB. It is enough to damage hearing. So we should be aware of it. When I was searching for hearing protection for shooters and hunters, a lot of them are suggesting to use cheap foam and earmuffs. I know, and all know that they will block the sounds but cannot do filters the sounds that are required so it won't be workable for the hunters.

Because hunters need to hear the sounds from animal approaching and team members conversation, but cheap foam and earmuffs block these sounds, and they won't be able to listen to each other.

According to my research, we need to use electronic hearing protection and able to meet all the requirements.
I will share the websites so that you guys can see these websites and get more information

https://www.bigearinc.com/products/best-ear-protection-for-shooting

https://www.gunearprotection.com/how-to-buy-the-best-shooting-earplug

[PWC]

Mdoerner- as far as not looking thru the optical center of your glasses, you might try the disposable stick on biocals on line; they are soft and can be cut to fit in the upper left corner of your right glasses (assuming you are right handed).

To find out what power to use go to the eyehlasses display in your drug store. Keep your prescrips on, and try on the readers over the prescrips and back up to front sight distance from the test chart. Look at the optical value of the reader that gives the clearest view. Order that value of soft bifocal.

For cheek weld, find your correct weld, and place a piece of mole skin there. Helps get weld back quickly, and in cold weather it's warmer than the stock.

[lyman]

wow,

almost 10 yr old thread ,,,,,

[Sunray]

Almost? 20 minus 10 is 10. Had that beaten into me by a nun. snicker.

[Parashooter]

Seems her teaching method was unsuccessful. Thread began in April, 2010. Now is January, 2020. "Almost 10 yr" is correct.

[lyman]

Seems her teaching method was unsuccessful. Thread began in April, 2010. Now is January, 2020. "Almost 10 yr" is correct.

yep,

[PWC]

Doesn't make the question or answer any less relevant.

[lyman]

Doesn't make the question or answer any less relevant.

nope, it does not

hopefully it helps someone