San Francisco Cops Fire 65 Shots In 15 Seconds At Murder Suspect

[dryheat]

In Viet Nam, where I was a company commander, the problem was to get men NOT to fire full auto, and to teach them methodical, aimed fire.
This and Arts post.
I have tried to picture what I would do in a situation where I had to take a life to save a life. I picture me not being able to put the front sight in the notch under pressure.

[kickshot7]

this guy shot and killed 1 person, Gravely wounded another and all the comments are about the police. Hopefully when one of your lives are at risk you get a PC cop that tries to engage the person beating your heads in into a nice dialog. If i am the one getting my head beat in on the other hand I want the cop to blow the SOB's head off and then ask me what happened. BTW, this guy "Joel Armstrong" has been shot twice, not by police, and brags about shooting people. He was last shot at the McDonald's near the Panhandle. shot in the elbow I believe. look it up. just remember, just like everyone hates lawyers cause they are slimey, until you need one then you want the slimiest one you can afford. PC is dying a slow but much deserved death.

[dryheat]

Thanks for the back story. I doubted the cop was in a panic, lying on the pavement firing all those rds. at a jaywalker. But according to BLM(not the real BLM) that might have been the case.
You can capitalize McDonald's but...

[milboltnut]

the perpetrator was taken into custody TWO hours later ???? He was inside an RV

They needed to use gas...

[clintonhater]

PC is dying a slow but much deserved death.

If you believe that, you must not own a TV--absolutely the best thing one can do to protect their mind & morals. Unfortunately, most folks (like me) are slaves to the tube.

[Art]

Art, back in the 1980 our department sent some of us to the Street Survival Course. Did you take it and if so, what is your opinion. It opened my eyes on different ways to kill a cop and it was scary.
Sam

Street Survival, or Officer Survival schools began to be offered in the 1980s. I attended several over the last 20 years of my career and all were excellent. The first I went to was in 1980 and was a lecture course taught by Pierce Brooks, an iconic figure in law enforcement in the 1950s and '60s. He was the youngest man ever to reach the rank of sergeant in the LAPD and was, after retiring from the LAPD the Chief of Police in Eugene Oregon. He is probably best known as the investigating officer in the "onion field killings" and is portrayed by Ronnie Cox in the movie of the same name. The course was superb and went over a whole bunch of the ways to kill a cop. He wrote an excellent book on the subject which was one of numerous books I loaned out and never recovered or gave away and later regretted. He was one of the first to say openly both in and out of his departments that most murders of police officers are preventable and due to officer complacency usually coupled with poor training. When Brooks was running the Eugene P.D. one of his policies was that anyone taken into custody was to be handcuffed with his/her hands behind the back including juveniles. Failure to do so resulted in a mandatory suspension on the first offense. He said by doing so the onus was taken off the officers and put on him when some mommy complained that her 12 year old shoplifter daughter was being treated like a criminal. He strongly believed that clear policies like that one encouraged safe officer behavior and resulted in fewer deaths of both officers and suspects.

The best of all was a week long course given by the U.S. Marshall's Service Special Operations Group, an elite unit dedicated to the apprehension of the most dangerous fugitives. This course involved fascinating lectures by very experienced LEOs who had apprehended numerous dangerous felons and participated in multiple armed encounters. It included a lot of live fire exercises with a variety of weapons (fun) that involved movement and would be considered too hazardous for most agencies to include in regular training. It was during one of those exercise I fell in love with the MP-5. There were exercise scenarios in which the Marshalls were the "bad guys" involving the use of plastic bullets that would draw blood if they hit you at short range. These scenarios were realistic enough to be spooky and for years I carried a little scar over my right kidney that was the result of a short range hit from one of those bullets. The idea was that pain in training might result in a lot less pain "on the job."

One course I had, late in my career, given by the excellent Houston Police Department SWAT unit involved movies to illustrate dumb and dangerous stuff. The lead instructor's two favorite movies for this were "Red Heat" and "48 Hours" which shows how old I am.

All of these schools were truly eye opening and as you said scary. Especially when you're watching real cops really getting killed or maimed on video by real criminals.

Nothing I'm saying in the posts on these threads has anything to do with excusing actual bad cop behavior which still happens too often, though not as often as the folks who look on all cops as crooks with badges would have you believed.

For those of you who haven't seen it I strongly recommend "The Onion Field." It is one of the most accurate "the way it really was" movies ever made. Joseph Wambaugh who wrote the book and produced the movie along with Brooks went to great efforts to recreate the crime and the follow up events as accurately as possible. Ted Danson and John Savage are superb as the two officers who are undone by a few moments of carelessness with the wrong guy. James Woods is truly scary (and creepy) as the killer Greg Powell who I saw died a few years ago.

[S.A. Boggs]

Street Survival, or Officer Survival schools began to be offered in the 1980s. I attended several over the last 20 years of my career and all were excellent. The first I went to was in 1980 and was a lecture course taught by Pierce Brooks, an iconic figure in law enforcement in the 1950s and '60s. He was the youngest man ever to reach the rank of sergeant in the LAPD and was, after retiring from the LAPD the Chief of Police in Eugene Oregon. He is probably best known as the investigating officer in the "onion field killings" and is portrayed by Ronnie Cox in the movie of the same name. The course was superb and went over a whole bunch of the ways to kill a cop. He wrote an excellent book on the subject which was one of numerous books I loaned out and never recovered or gave away and later regretted. He was one of the first to say openly both in and out of his departments that most murders of police officers are preventable and due to officer complacency usually coupled with poor training. When Brooks was running the Eugene P.D. one of his policies was that anyone taken into custody was to be handcuffed with his/her hands behind the back including juveniles. Failure to do so resulted in a mandatory suspension on the first offense. He said by doing so the onus was taken off the officers and put on him when some mommy complained that her 12 year old shoplifter daughter was being treated like a criminal. He strongly believed that clear policies like that one encouraged safe officer behavior and resulted in fewer deaths of both officers and suspects.

The best of all was a week long course given by the U.S. Marshall's Service Special Operations Group, an elite unit dedicated to the apprehension of the most dangerous fugitives. This course involved fascinating lectures by very experienced LEOs who had apprehended numerous dangerous felons and participated in multiple armed encounters. It included a lot of live fire exercises with a variety of weapons (fun) that involved movement and would be considered too hazardous for most agencies to include in regular training. There were exercise scenarios in which the Marshalls were the "bad guys" involving the use of plastic bullets that would draw blood if they hit you at short range. These scenarios were realistic enough to be spooky and for years I carried a little scar over my right kidney that was the result of a short range hit from one of those bullets. The idea was that pain in training might result in a lot less pain "on the job."

One course I had, late in my career, given by the excellent Houston Police Department SWAT unit involved movies to illustrate dumb and dangerous stuff. The lead instructor's two favorite movies for this were "Red Heat" and "48 Hours" which shows how old I am.

All of these schools were truly eye opening and as you said scary. Especially when you're watching real cops really getting killed or maimed on video by real criminals.

Nothing I'm saying in the posts on these threads has anything to do with excusing actual bad cop behavior which still happens too often, though not as often as the folks who look on all cops as crooks with badges would have you believed.

For those of you who haven't seen it I strongly recommend "The Onion Field." It is one of the most accurate "the way it really was" movies ever made. Joseph Wambaugh who wrote the book and produced the movie along with Brooks went to great efforts to recreate the crime and the follow up events as accurately as possible. Ted Danson and John Savage are superb as the two officers who are undone by a few moments of carelessness with the wrong guy. James Woods is truly spooky as the killer.

There were 5 deputies chosen [all we could afford to send] to attend the training, being the weapons and property officer I was one of the lucky one along with the two detective Sgt. It was eye opening to say the least especially the shoot don't shoot as we had none of that training. I recognized many of the stupid things that had gotten other officers killed and changed how I approached people after that...I still use the training today. Speaking of pain, when we were certified to carry and use the PR-24 it was realistic and very painful. We trained in full uniform not just gun belt and you got good real fast in using the PR-24 in all situations. The Ohio Highway Patrol instructors did not tell us what was going to happen, stuff "just happened!" very quickly and suddenly. Many pool sticks and baseball bats were broken, not to mention skinned knuckles and bruised shoulders. I hated deflecting the baseballs and golf balls that were thrown at us, the baseballs I could do not so much the golf balls. Once word got around that we were using the PR-24 physical altercations went down except among the stupid or "macho" who were tanked up at the bar with liquid courage.
Sam