Deaths in Childbirth

[lyman]

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/07/h...y-deaths-.html there's always a way.

and there always will be

[Art]

Art,

First, what you call garbage is in fact the official position of a good many Catholic prelates and fundamentalist churches. Contrary to your assumptions I am not unschooled in the testaments, and I know that there is plenty of room for, shall we say, a more modern view of the social order. But you know as well as I that many in these times reject modern thinking. Don't shoot the messenger here.

Second, where is the line then if not at the egg? If you can only speak for yourself, then please do. I've tried to get Vernon to entertain the idea that the host body has any rights at all, and he staunchly refuses. If that doesn't make people sit up and take notice, then something is wrong. Vernon is of course Catholic, as am I.

My own view: privately we are free to make our own choices. Publicly we have to guard against curtailing the freedom of others for reasons of our religious views. That there is a tension, no doubt.

My problem is believing you've misstated the views of a lot of people, especially in the orthodox and fundamentalist protestant groups and probably a majority of lay Catholics, at least when it comes to contraception.

Frankly most Catholic lay people (like you) have abandoned the church's position on birth control (though not necessarily abortion) many, decades ago. I do know Catholics who are pro abortion and I have no illusions of changing any minds. No protestant church I've ever been a member of had a position against contraception, and they leave family planning to the discretion of the family....and I've belonged to some pretty hard core ones. I've never belonged to a fundamentalist or orthodox protestant church that had an anti contraception position. Almost Catholics and orthodox protestants, in my experience, oppose abortion as a means of birth control but accept it if necessary to protect the mother from death or serious bodily injury. Probably a smaller majority would add the rape or incest provision (which in practice is the same thing.) I'm pretty much down with that. That is, however as far as I personally will go or condone. That's my opinion.

I oppose on moral grounds the virtually unlimited availability of abortion in this country, that's my view. It's not the law and under the law your view prevails. I hope that eventually changes but under the current precedent policy of the court that's not likely.

[S.A. Boggs]

To not oppose the murder of children is to condone the murder of children. As I told my client's many times, by not making a decision one has already decided.
Sam

[togor]

Art,

I put myself in the "reasonable restriction" category on abortion. I believe that the Constitution was clearly written with the "born" in mind, as we find no passage in it that refers to the unborn. At a minimum the woman has to have a say. If we're going to let religious beliefs overrule the Constitution then we condemn our descendants to living under someone's church law. We will have blown it for them.

[oscars]

https://www.catholic.com/tract/birth-control

The citation end with both the Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur, indicating the official Church position

Basis of Teachings
In 1968, Pope Paul VI issued his landmark encyclical letter Humanae Vitae (Latin, “Human Life”), which reemphasized the Church’s constant teaching that it is always intrinsically wrong to use contraception to prevent new human beings from coming into existence.
Contraception is “any action which, either in anticipation of the conjugal act [sexual intercourse], or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible” (Humanae Vitae 14). This includes sterilization, condoms and other barrier methods, spermicides, coitus interruptus (withdrawal method), the Pill, and all other such methods.

The Historic Christian Teaching
Few realize that up until 1930, all Protestant denominations agreed with the Catholic Church’s teaching condemning contraception as sinful. At its 1930 Lambeth Conference, the Anglican church, swayed by growing social pressure, announced that contraception would be allowed in some circumstances. Soon the Anglican church completely caved in, allowing contraception across the board. Since then, all other Protestant denominations have followed suit. Today, the Catholic Church alone proclaims the historic Christian position on contraception.

Wishful Thinking
Ignoring the mountain of evidence, some maintain that the Church considers the use of contraception a matter for each married couple to decide according to their “individual conscience.” Yet, nothing could be further from the truth. The Church has always maintained the historic Christian teaching that deliberate acts of contraception are always gravely sinful, which means that it is mortally sinful if done with full knowledge and deliberate consent (CCC 1857). This teaching cannot be changed and has been taught by the Church infallibly.
There is no way to deny the fact that the Church has always and everywhere condemned artificial contraception. The matter has already been infallibly decided. The so-called “individual conscience” argument amounts to “individual disobedience.”

NIHIL OBSTAT: I have concluded that the materials
presented in this work are free of doctrinal or moral errors.
Bernadeane Carr, STL, Censor Librorum, August 10, 2004

IMPRIMATUR: In accord with 1983 CIC 827
permission to publish this work is hereby granted.
+Robert H. Brom, Bishop of San Diego, August 10, 2004