A Propaganda Gift To The Islamists

[Roadkingtrax]

41

[blackhawknj]

Calley was the only officer convicted in the My Lai courts-martial. Company Commander Ernest medina was acquitted as was Brigade Commander Oran Henderson and another captain, charges against all the others were dismissed. Division Commander Samuel Koster was censured, stripped of his DSM and demoted for 'failure to properly investigate"-general's version of an Article 15. In 1981 Koster filed suit in the US Court of Claims to recover the difference in his pension between Major General and Brigadier General, the court dismissed his suit, saying it had no authority to review the Army's actions. My Lai was "investigated" by the Peers
Commission, which strove mightily to pin the blame on five officers who were already dead.
The Army came up with the doctrine of "illegal orders/unlawful orders"-putting the responsibility on the lowest ranking EM and NCOs. I was in the 12th Engineer Battalion in Germany in early 1971, our class was taught by our company commander, a 1LT, Engineers-really qualified, no ?
When the residents of Georgia pleaded with Sherman to stop the destruction wreaked by his troops, he told them that power was in their hands-they could stop the war.

[S.A. Boggs]

Calley was the only officer convicted in the My Lai courts-martial. Company Commander Ernest medina was acquitted as was Brigade Commander Oran Henderson and another captain, charges against all the others were dismissed. Division Commander Samuel Koster was censured, stripped of his DSM and demoted for 'failure to properly investigate"-general's version of an Article 15. In 1981 Koster filed suit in the US Court of Claims to recover the difference in his pension between Major General and Brigadier General, the court dismissed his suit, saying it had no authority to review the Army's actions. My Lai was "investigated" by the Peers
Commission, which strove mightily to pin the blame on five officers who were already dead.
The Army came up with the doctrine of "illegal orders/unlawful orders"-putting the responsibility on the lowest ranking EM and NCOs. I was in the 12th Engineer Battalion in Germany in early 1971, our class was taught by our company commander, a 1LT, Engineers-really qualified, no ?
When the residents of Georgia pleaded with Sherman to stop the destruction wreaked by his troops, he told them that power was in their hands-they could stop the war.

Parallel the previous resident of the White House and My Lai 4.
Sam

[Vern Humphrey]

Calley was the only officer convicted in the My Lai courts-martial. Company Commander Ernest medina was acquitted as was Brigade Commander Oran Henderson and another captain, charges against all the others were dismissed. Division Commander Samuel Koster was censured, stripped of his DSM and demoted for 'failure to properly investigate"-general's version of an Article 15. In 1981 Koster filed suit in the US Court of Claims to recover the difference in his pension between Major General and Brigadier General, the court dismissed his suit, saying it had no authority to review the Army's actions. My Lai was "investigated" by the Peers
Commission, which strove mightily to pin the blame on five officers who were already dead.
The Army came up with the doctrine of "illegal orders/unlawful orders"-putting the responsibility on the lowest ranking EM and NCOs. I was in the 12th Engineer Battalion in Germany in early 1971, our class was taught by our company commander, a 1LT, Engineers-really qualified, no ?
When the residents of Georgia pleaded with Sherman to stop the destruction wreaked by his troops, he told them that power was in their hands-they could stop the war.

Not quite.

The Hague Convention requires each signatory nation to produce a manual on the Law of Land Warfare. That manual serves two purposes -- to set standards for own forces and to prosecute violations on the other side. Prior to about 1943 both the British and American Armies endorsed "superior orders" as a defense. Looking forward to the end of the war and the prosecution of Nazis, they stripped that provision out.

The French still have it in their manual, and sneer at the British and American approach as "the Theory of Intelligent Bayonets."

The American and British approach has resulted in "the Soldier's Dilemma." It works like this -- you hear firing ahead of you and rush forward to see an old man (or a woman) running away from you. Your platoon leader says, "Shoot that man (or woman)!"

So you:

A. Shoot and are court-martialed for murder, or

B. You don't shoot, and the platoon leader shows you the body of your Platoon Sergeant and the AK 47 the old man or woman used to kill him and then threw away. And you are court-martialed for Misbehavior in the Presence of the Enemy.

Now in the case of My Lai, there can be no doubt the men who did the killing knew exactly what they were doing. To claim "Superior Orders" is preposterous.

[Roadkingtrax]

Parallel the previous resident of the White House and My Lai 4.
Sam

Sam, stay away from the deep end of the pool.

[S.A. Boggs]

Not quite.

The Hague Convention requires each signatory nation to produce a manual on the Law of Land Warfare. That manual serves two purposes -- to set standards for own forces and to prosecute violations on the other side. Prior to about 1943 both the British and American Armies endorsed "superior orders" as a defense. Looking forward to the end of the war and the prosecution of Nazis, they stripped that provision out.

The French still have it in their manual, and sneer at the British and American approach as "the Theory of Intelligent Bayonets."

The American and British approach has resulted in "the Soldier's Dilemma." It works like this -- you hear firing ahead of you and rush forward to see an old man (or a woman) running away from you. Your platoon leader says, "Shoot that man (or woman)!"

So you:

A. Shoot and are court-martialed for murder, or

B. You don't shoot, and the platoon leader shows you the body of your Platoon Sergeant and the AK 47 the old man or woman used to kill him and then threw away. And you are court-martialed for Misbehavior in the Presence of the Enemy.

Now in the case of My Lai, there can be no doubt the men who did the killing knew exactly what they were doing. To claim "Superior Orders" is preposterous.

With Barry in charge, one could claim just "following orders" as a defense. This didn't work too well @ Nuremburg in 1946, Oh well just continue to lie as usual.
Sammad.jpg

[Roadkingtrax]

43!

[Vern Humphrey]

With Barry in charge, one could claim just "following orders" as a defense. This didn't work too well @ Nuremburg in 1946.

We changed our manual on the Law of Land warfare for just that purpose -- to deny the Nazis that defense.

[blackhawknj]

The "illegal orders/unlawful orders" nonsense only started in 1971 after My Lai, before then we always heard that if you were given an order you OBEYED it, any questions were brought up AFTERWARDS.
I don't put too much store in the Nuremburg Trials, they were victors' justice pure and simple. Goering is quoted as saying that after this, it isn't necessary to condemn him (Hitler), he has condemned himself. Calley was a scapegoat and a fall guy. When the troops landed at the LZ Medina sent them ahead under Calley while he stayed at the LZ to coordinate support, Medina was trying to command over the radio from a mile and a half away.
The Peers Commission did determine that the senior commanders-Barker, Henderson, Koster-were all present in their helicopters.

[Vern Humphrey]

Calley was a scapegoat and a fall guy.

I don't deny that other people were just or even more guilty than Calley -- I already said Medina should have been 'dobie walled -- but a triggerman can never be a scapegoat or a fall guy.

[togor]

43!

Actually 44. He's on a tear and we can't rule out a run at the monthly record. 21 in 5 days is a bit over 4 a day. He can do it!

[blackhawknj]

In his excellent book The War Managers two tour Vietnam veteran and West Point graduate Douglas Kinnard, BG-USA (Ret'd) states the failure to mobilize the reserves resulted in Regular Army OCS standards falling to the "Calley-Medina" level." though both those individuals-and the many others like them-were the result of putting quantity over quality. In his lame memoirs Westmoreland said he had "compassion" for Calley-"the responsibilities of an officer were too much for him" but "the Army was forced to lower its standards due to quality young men hiding from the draft." Though the several Ivy League graduates I have met who served as officers at that time had few kind things to say about the officers they served with-especially the service academy graduates.

[Vern Humphrey]

In his excellent book The War Managers two tour Vietnam veteran and West Point graduate Douglas Kinnard, BG-USA (Ret'd) states the failure to mobilize the reserves resulted in Regular Army OCS standards falling to the "Calley-Medina" level." though both those individuals-and the many others like them-were the result of putting quantity over quality. In his lame memoirs Westmoreland said he had "compassion" for Calley-"the responsibilities of an officer were too much for him" but "the Army was forced to lower its standards due to quality young men hiding from the draft." Though the several Ivy League graduates I have met who served as officers at that time had few kind things to say about the officers they served with-especially the service academy graduates.

Westmoreland never did understand. HE was the commander. HE was the man who set the standards, and Mai Lai and the subsequent coverup was ultimately his responsibility.

He gave a talk at Fort Benning, and about half his audience had got their letters -- they were being discharged, and most of them were fine officers. Westmoreland said, "We are getting rid of the crud that has crept into the Army" and was soundly booed.

When he retired, he got a potful of letters congratulating him for finally "getting the crud out of the Army."