Midway - looking for those Japanese carriers ...

[Vern Humphrey]

Vern, it's just conversation. I have no plans to go back in time and try to change the outcome of something that never happened.

1. Blowing up a refinery unfortunately is very easy and does not take a bomb. In some cases just closing a single valve can do it. Our worse refinery fires happened when we were shutting down or starting up. ANY leak or fire turns ugly very quick. I do have horror stories.

What refinery are we talking about? And why didn't we actually do that?

4. Battleships? They didn't all go to the bottom but assuming repairs would take too long or other ships being too far away smaller torpedo boats, PT boats, etc could have possibly have been used.

So if we could do it with PT boats, why DIDN'T we do it with PT boats?

Again, I wasn't there. IF SHTF and all carriers were lost I'm sure many scenarios would have been presented and tried. Those I listed may not have been used but I'm pretty sure the Japs would not have been able to help themselves to that refinery. The Russians did the same with their refinery's when Germany was invading.

How long would we have to try different scenarios?

[dogtag]

[QUOTE=Vern Humphrey;567078]When you discuss aircraft, remember the Japanese Zero was both faster and more maneuverable than the F4F Wildcat, our newest naval fighter. And many of the aircraft from Midway were Brewster Buffalos -- and anyone who send men in Brewster Buffalos against Zeros should have been shot!

But the zero weak spot was not having self sealing fuel tanks.

[Allen]

What refinery are we talking about? And why didn't we actually do that?

So if we could do it with PT boats, why DIDN'T we do it with PT boats?

How long would we have to try different scenarios?

Up until recently there were 2 refineries, one in Kapolei and one in Honolulu. Down to one now. I don't know the ages. What is near Hickman Field may be a terminal.

But why blow it up since the Japs didn't invade Hawaii? That would be like blowing up refineries because of 9-11.

"why didn't we do it with PT boats?"

Do what? The subject was IF our carriers had been lost and the Japs were going to take over Hawaii.

"how long would we have to try different scenarios?"

Doesn't matter. The battle of Midway was won.

[Vern Humphrey]

[QUOTE=dogtag;567148]

When you discuss aircraft, remember the Japanese Zero was both faster and more maneuverable than the F4F Wildcat, our newest naval fighter. And many of the aircraft from Midway were Brewster Buffalos -- and anyone who send men in Brewster Buffalos against Zeros should have been shot!

But the zero weak spot was not having self sealing fuel tanks.

If you had the capability of exploiting that weak spot. To the best of my knowledge, none of the Brewster Buffalos from Midway got a single zero. We killed them by sinking their carriers.

[blackhawknj]

The Zero was faster and more maneuverable and had longer range due to the absence of armor for the pilot. The 4F4 Wildcat had 4 .50 calibers which gave it more punch. The Japanese carrier pilots of 1941-1942 were the best in the world, but, like their ships, the Japanese could not replace them that easily.

[Art]

The Zero was faster and more maneuverable and had longer range due to the absence of armor for the pilot. The 4F4 Wildcat had 4 .50 calibers which gave it more punch. The Japanese carrier pilots of 1941-1942 were the best in the world, but, like their ships, the Japanese could not replace them that easily.

The Wildcat may have been a half step or so behind the A6M3 Zero but it was definitely in the same class. The Zero was faster, though only by 10-15 mph, had a much superior rate of climb, and though the Zero was superior in maneuverability (to everything at the time) the Wildcat was surprisingly nimble. The Wildcat also had an excellent record when it came to heavily damaged aircraft bringing their pilots back alive, And, speaking again of the Zero's fragility, the A6M3 had a "never exceed speed of 370 mph. Having a fighter plane in 1942-43 that might start to fall apart at speeds over 370 mph can't be a good thing. The A6M5 series introduced at the end of 1943 was too little way too late. It was up gunned, up armored, structurally stronger and had self sealing fuel tanks but the added weight from those modifications meant that the new engine with its added 400 horsepower only added about 20 mph to its top speed. All in all it was markedly inferior to the Hellcat it was intended to combat.

Add that to the fact that American Navy pilots were among the best in the world, the difference was not that much. Saburo Sakai himself said that the Navy pilots he fought flying the Wildcat in the first year of the war were the best he faced anywhere. Joe Foss, for example, shot down 26 Japanese aircraft before 1943 in the Wildcat and the Wildcat had an overall kill ratio of almost 7 to 1. Allowing for wartime exaggeration and putting it down to maybe 4.5 to 1 that's still pretty darn good. Almost all of those kills were in the Pacific and since the Wildcat was largely relegated to duty on escort carriers after early 1943, almost all against the Japanese "A" team. This success was also due to superior tactics, the Japanese still dogfighting as if they were in WWI.

The fragility and flammability of Japanese aircraft in the first year of the war also had the result of increased aircrew fatalities. It didn't help a bit that Japanese doctrine did not allow for searching for attempting to recover downed pilots unless they ditched or were shot down near their carriers. A typical example of Japanese counterproductive machismo.

With all of this the Japanese took much higher aircrew losses relative to the aircraft lost than we did. For the purposes of this discussion an aircraft lost in a battle is an aircraft lost whether it was destroyed by anti aircraft fire, enemy aircraft, goes down with a ship or simply gets lost. The Japanese carrier striking force fought six major battles in WW II, Pearl Harbor, which we'll disregard due to lack of effective oposition, and The Philippine Sea in which Japanese aircraft and pilot quality were generally so inferior it's irrelevant. Interestingly the only one of these battles in which the Japanese lost less aircrew than we did was Midway because contrary to what we thought at the time most Japanese air crew survived the sinking of their carriers.

The results are - and this is from actual records of actual aircraft and aircrew lost after the war.

At Midway the Japanese lost 110 aircrew, 70 of whom were in the airgroup of the Hiryu (more on that later) I can't find American aircrew losses but it's a sure thing that many if not most of the 307 KIA were in aircrews, especially the torpedo planes sent from Midway and the carriers and Blake's Midway fighter group composed mostly of Brewster Buffalos.

Coral Sea - Japanese tactical victory but strategic defeat. U.S - 69 aircraft lost 35 aircrew lost; Japan 92 aircraft lost 90 aircrew lost.
Eastern Solomons - U.S. victory - U.S. 20 aircraft lost 7 aircrew lost; Japan 75 aircraft lost 61 aircrew lost.
Santa Cruz - Japanese victory - U.S. 81 aircraft lost, 26 aircrew lost; Japan 90 aircraft lost and a whopping 148 aircrew lost meaning that if your plane went down a Santa Cruz and you were Japanese your affairs had best be in order.

It's reminiscent of the Greek general Phyrrus who after suffering catastrophic casualties in two victories over the Romans was said to have remarked "One more such victory and I am undone."

All in all the Japanese lost over 400 of the 750 aircrew who struck Pearl Harbor by January 1943 and those losses were never made good. Subsequent replacement Japanese aircrew varied from inferior to vastly inferior and by mid 1943 were facing superior American pilots mounted in Superior aircraft. The scale of that superiority stupefied Saburo Sakai when he returned to combat in late 1943.

I believe it was said above that the American carriers Saratoga and Wasp couldn't have returned to Hawaii in time. In fact the Saratoga arrived the day after the battle of midway, June 8. The Wasp arrived less than two weeks later. The first week of July TF 11 with the Saratoga and Wasp at its core sortied from Pearl Harbor.

The loss of the Hiryu: The first dauntless strike sank all of the carriers except the Hiryu. Instead of saving this extremely valuable military asset and its intact airgroup it's commander, Tamon Yamaguchi, in a decision based on Japanese military ideals of honor and self immolation, decided to take on the U.S task force single handed. This did result in the sinking of the Yorktown but ultimately insured the final and total destruction of the Nagumo task group.

[ut1seabee]

The what-ifs and statistics are meaningless except for debate. The victory at Midway handed the Japs a good pasting. The Americans did their best with what they had and prevailed. That alone is relevant. Call it whatever you want luck,determination or even divine intervention. It was an "incredible victory."

[Clark Howard]

There is a headstone in a churchyard near my home that stands for a Naval Pilot who was lost in Torpedo 8.

[Vern Humphrey]

The Wildcat may have been a half step or so behind the A6M3 Zero but it was definitely in the same class. The Zero was faster, though only by 10-15 mph, had a much superior rate of climb, and though the Zero was superior in maneuverability (to everything at the time) the Wildcat was surprisingly nimble. The Wildcat also had an excellent record when it came to heavily damaged aircraft bringing their pilots back alive, And, speaking again of the Zero's fragility, the A6M3 had a "never exceed speed of 370 mph. Having a fighter plane in 1942-43 that might start to fall apart at speeds over 370 mph can't be a good thing.

John Thatch would agree. He compared the Zero and the Wildcat, and concluded that if Wildcats and Zeroes traded shot, the Zeroes would fall out of the air first. He developed the "Thatch Weave (AKA the "Beam Defense.") where Wildcats would fly in pairs. When jumped by Zeroes they would weave, one crossing the other's nose, then being crossed on the next turn. This led the pursuing Zeroes into positions for deflection shots -- and the Wildcats' 6 .50 BMGs put out far more lead than the Zero, even with a 20mm cannon.