Midway - looking for those Japanese carriers ...

[dogtag]

Found one of them, the Kaga and the Cruiser

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...-II-ships.html

[Vern Humphrey]

Midway

They launched into the lowering clouds
To keep a tryst with fate.
And some of them came home again
But not Torpedo 8.

If we lost this battle
It would be a total loss
The outcome of the war
Was riding on this toss

It would all be decided
Before the setting of the sun
So we sailed into battle
Outnumbered two to one

We didn’t know where the Japanese were
But we couldn’t afford to wait
We launched everything we had
Including Torpedo 8

In the thick heavy clouds
It was hard to navigate
And one squadron got separated
Torpedo Squadron 8

They were alone and unescorted
But they didn’t turn back
They saw the Japanese carriers
And immediately attacked!

Behind the misty veils of clouds
The Japanese carriers hide.
Valkyries wait for Torpedo 8
As they begin their final ride.

It takes three squadrons to make the attack
But there was only one
So Torpedo 8 was slaughtered
On their final run

They found the Japanese carriers
And did their duty plain
And though they did not get a hit
They did not die in vain

For they had sent a message
And now Torpedo 8 was dead
When the dive bombers from Enterprise
Arrived high overhead

Enterprise’s dive bombers
Should have met the same fate
But the Japanese fighters were gone
Drawn off by Torpedo 8

Though we lost the Yorktown
Before the battle was done
They lost all four carriers
We sank them every one

Torpedo 8 bought the victory
But they paid the ultimate price
And the tide of war was changed
By their selfless sacrifice

When they told the gallant lady
That all her sons had died
She gave a final, fiery breath
And rolled onto her side.

The dark Pacific’s deep as hell
Where the Japanese carriers rest
And amidst them Lady Yorktown
Who sacrificed her best.

[Gun Smoke]

I was watching a program on the History Channel about the attack at Midway. FDR was being briefed about the outcome. When told that 4 carriers had been sunk he got real pale and in a shaky voice said "I thought we only had 3". Then they clarified themselves and said "no, 4 Japanese carriers were sunk".

[Art]

The Japanese had disadvantages at Midway that sometimes aren't thought about much.

The Japanese carriers had been heavily and almost continuously engaged since Peal Harbor. As a result they had a shortage of aircraft due not just to combat losses but to mechanical attrition. Additionally, the decision had been made to replace the B5N (Kate) torpedo plane with the superior B6N Jill and production of the Kate had been suspended. Unfortunately for the Japanese technical and production glitches kept the anticipated supplies of the new plane late, so supplies of this critical aircraft were compromised. All of those factors made for shortages and a lot of the Japanese aircraft on the war weary side. As a result only the smalish Sroyu and Hiryu had their full compliments of aircraft, 57 each. The Kaga and Akagi both had a maximum strength of 90 aircraft but the Kaga embarked 74 aircraft for the Midway operation and the Akagi only 60. There was thought given to filling out the Kaga and Akagi air groups with aircraft and crews from the Shokaku and Zuikaku which were refitting and repairing after battle damage and aircraft losses in the Coral Sea but the Japanese doctrine prohibited mixing air groups in that way so it wasn't done.

The three American carriers embarked a total of 236 aircraft right there, near parity with the Japanese numeircally. The aircraft on the carriers, combined with the 124 combat aircraft stationed on Midway resulted in an American numerical superiority of 360 to 248. This greatly aided the Americans because the constant air attacks from Midway, despite inflicting minimal damage (only a torpedo attack by a PBY actually scored a hit) constantly delayed Japanese from being able to spot, much less launch a strike. Add to that the element of surprise and the result wasn't quite as unexpected as one might think.

Even if the Japanese had won a complete victory at Midway the defeat of Japan was almost surely inevitable. We out produced them on a colossal scale. The only hope the Japanese had was that we'd ask for terms after they slapped us around for a while and of course that wasn't going to happen after Pearl Harbor.

The following page is an interesting article on just how great our actual superiority in equipment was; including a section dealing with carrier aviation through mid 1946 if we had lost all three carriers.

http://www.combinedfleet.com/economic.htm

[Roadkingtrax]

I'm sure all the losses from Taffy 3 will be identified.

They just recently announced the discovery of the St Lo. sitting upright, and in good condition, despite her heavy battle damage and initially capsizing.

[Vern Humphrey]

The Japanese had disadvantages at Midway that sometimes aren't thought about much.

The Japanese carriers had been heavily and almost continuously engaged since Peal Harbor. As a result they had a shortage of aircraft due not just to combat losses but to mechanical attrition. Additionally, the decision had been made to replace the B5N (Kate) torpedo plane with the superior B6N Jill and production of the Kate had been suspended. Unfortunately for the Japanese technical and production glitches kept the anticipated supplies of the new plane late, so supplies of this critical aircraft were compromised. All of those factors made for shortages and a lot of the Japanese aircraft on the war weary side. As a result only the smalish Sroyu and Hiryu had their full compliments of aircraft, 57 each. The Kaga and Akagi both had a maximum strength of 90 aircraft but the Kaga embarked 74 aircraft for the Midway operation and the Akagi only 60. There was thought given to filling out the Kaga and Akagi air groups with aircraft and crews from the Shokaku and Zuikaku which were refitting and repairing after battle damage and aircraft losses in the Coral Sea but the Japanese doctrine prohibited mixing air groups in that way so it wasn't done.

The three American carriers embarked a total of 236 aircraft right there, near parity with the Japanese numeircally. The aircraft on the carriers, combined with the 124 combat aircraft stationed on Midway resulted in an American numerical superiority of 360 to 248. This greatly aided the Americans because the constant air attacks from Midway, despite inflicting minimal damage (only a torpedo attack by a PBY actually scored a hit) constantly delayed Japanese from being able to spot, much less launch a strike. Add to that the element of surprise and the result wasn't quite as unexpected as one might think.

Even if the Japanese had won a complete victory at Midway the defeat of Japan was almost surely inevitable. We out produced them on a colossal scale. The only hope the Japanese had was that we'd ask for terms after they slapped us around for a while and of course that wasn't going to happen after Pearl Harbor.

The following page is an interesting article on just how great our actual superiority in equipment was; including a section dealing with carrier aviation through mid 1946 if we had lost all three carriers.

http://www.combinedfleet.com/economic.htm

When you discuss aircraft, remember the Japanese Zero was both faster and more maneuverable than the F4F Wildcat, our newest naval fighter. And many of the aircraft from Midway were Brewster Buffalos -- and anyone who send men in Brewster Buffalos against Zeros should have been shot!

Consider this: Suppose the tables had been turned and WE had lost the total carrier force we sent to Midway. We would have had NO aircraft carriers left -- and the Japanese would have had full run of the Pacific. How could we have defended Hawaii?

[togor]

"Shattered Sword" is a great read on Midway, pulling in a lot of Japanese material.

[Allen]

Consider this: Suppose the tables had been turned and WE had lost the total carrier force we sent to Midway. We would have had NO aircraft carriers left -- and the Japanese would have had full run of the Pacific. How could we have defended Hawaii?

Blow up their refinery. They had one then as well as now. It wouldn't stop the Japs from taking over Hawaii but at that point in time they were starved for fuel. They didn't want to attack the mainland and transporting fuel from Japan (or where ever) to Hawaii would have been slow work. Perhaps slow enough for the U.S. to come up with a counter plan to cut off their supplies. Also, there would then be a large concentration of Japs at Hawaii that could have been shelled by battleships. They had no tunnels there to hide in.

Subs could have been used too to sneak in a sink the carriers when they were docked at Pearl though I don't believe we had many at the time.

One thing for sure, losing the battle of Midway would have been disastrous for the U.S.

[Art]

When you discuss aircraft, remember the Japanese Zero was both faster and more maneuverable than the F4F Wildcat, our newest naval fighter. And many of the aircraft from Midway were Brewster Buffalos -- and anyone who send men in Brewster Buffalos against Zeros should have been shot!

Consider this: Suppose the tables had been turned and WE had lost the total carrier force we sent to Midway. We would have had NO aircraft carriers left -- and the Japanese would have had full run of the Pacific. How could we have defended Hawaii?

What you say is true but you also have to consider that the Japanese were still fighting in 1944 with essentially the same fighter planes they had in 1941. We had the P38 which was equal to anything in the Japanese arsenal early in the war and replaced the P40s P39s and Wildcats in front line service with Hellcats, Corsairs, Mustangs and Thunderbolts by the end of 1943. By 1945, if I recall correctly, there was only one P40 squadron left in service and the wildcats were restricted to escort carriers, while the Japanese were still mostly equipped with Zeros Oscars and Tonys thru the war. Some better fighters came in in 1944 but total numbers of these better machines was less than 4,000 total.

On the aircraft carriers: If we'd lost all three carriers at Midway we still would have had the Saratoga which was undergoing repairs in the states and the Wasp which was on its way back from the Atlantic. We did lose 4 of the six carriers we had at the start of the war by 1943 ( Lexington at the Coral Sea, Wasp to a Japanese submarine, Yorktown at Midway and Hornet at Santa Cruz.) In fact while the Enterprise was being patched up after being severely damaged at the Eastern Solomons and Santa Cruz we actually had to borrow a carrier (Victorious) from the Brits to operate with the Saratoga so We'd have two carriers to form a division. The Japanese had 4 fleet carriers available during that period but for a variety of reasons didn't force the issue. That was a dark several months. My point was that while a Midway loss would have been a very, very bad thing, and the war would have probably been extended by at least a year; all of the losses would have been made up and more within 2 years and I don't believe the ultimate result would have changed.

However, with the benefit of hindsight, the Japanese actually had little chance at Midway considering we had been "reading their mail" and had the complete element of surprise.

[Allen]

However, the Japanese actually had little chance at Midway considering we had been "reading their mail" and had the complete element of surprise.

Yes the Americans had broken the Japanese code and broadcast a phony story about running out of fresh water at Midway. If the Japs repeated the story (in their code) it could be determined that they were interested in Midway. There was uncertainty and a great risk as the available carriers were sent there leaving other areas mostly unguarded.

At the time it wasn't 100% certain Japan had taken the bait or was one step ahead of us to throw us off.

Nimitz took the risk and like they say "the rest is history".

[Vern Humphrey]

Blow up their refinery.

How? Would it require the use of aircraft carriers -- which under this scenario we would no longer have?

It wouldn't stop the Japs from taking over Hawaii but at that point in time they were starved for fuel.

They had already taken Singapore and had full run of what was then the Dutch East Indies -- which had plenty of oil.

They didn't want to attack the mainland and transporting fuel from Japan (or where ever) to Hawaii would have been slow work.

No problem -- since without carriers we would have little capability to interfere with such transport

Perhaps slow enough for the U.S. to come up with a counter plan to cut off their supplies. Also, there would then be a large concentration of Japs at Hawaii that could have been shelled by battleships. They had no tunnels there to hide in.

What battleships? Our battleships were still on the bottom at Pearl Harbor -- and remember, the British had tried using a battleship without air cover. How'd that work out for them?

Subs could have been used too to sneak in a sink the carriers when they were docked at Pearl though I don't believe we had many at the time.

Submarines are weapons of attrition, not of stunning victory. And without carriers, we would need a stunning victory.

One thing for sure, losing the battle of Midway would have been disastrous for the U.S.

Exactly right!

[P51MUSTANG]

The new Movie is out is less than 2 weeks should be great from the trailer I have seen.....

[Vern Humphrey]

What you say is true but you also have to consider that the Japanese were still fighting in 1944 with essentially the same fighter planes they had in 1941.

But Midway was 1942 -- only about 6 months after Pearl Harbor. So we were fighting with what we had at the start of the war, not with what we produced later.

On the aircraft carriers: If we'd lost all three carriers at Midway we still would have had the Saratoga which was undergoing repairs in the states and the Wasp which was on its way back from the Atlantic.

But those carriers couldn't have been got into action soon enough

However, with the benefit of hindsight, the Japanese actually had little chance at Midway considering we had been "reading their mail" and had the complete element of surprise.

Actually, while code breaking did give us a strategic advantage, Midway was a battle -- a tactical engagement. We had no tactical advantage. If the Japanese had found our carriers before we found theirs, all the code breaking in the world wouldn't have saved us.

[Allen]

Vern, it's just conversation. I have no plans to go back in time and try to change the outcome of something that never happened.

1. Blowing up a refinery unfortunately is very easy and does not take a bomb. In some cases just closing a single valve can do it. Our worse refinery fires happened when we were shutting down or starting up. ANY leak or fire turns ugly very quick. I do have horror stories.

2. Singapore is still a long way to transport fuel.

3. Japan allegedly said they were afraid to attack the mainland due to every able bodied person possessing a gun.

4. Battleships? They didn't all go to the bottom but assuming repairs would take too long or other ships being too far away smaller torpedo boats, PT boats, etc could have possibly have been used.

5. Subs aren't w/o fault but if that was the only resort who knows what could have been accomplished?

Again, I wasn't there. IF SHTF and all carriers were lost I'm sure many scenarios would have been presented and tried. Those I listed may not have been used but I'm pretty sure the Japs would not have been able to help themselves to that refinery. The Russians did the same with their refinery's when Germany was invading.

[togor]

The entire Japanese naval doctrine, including carrier tactics and planes, was geared towards maximizing striking power at the risk of survivability. Their aim was to knock us clear back to the west coast if possible and hope we would decide it wasn't worth the trouble. With the Essex class fleet and new aircraft coming in 1943, and given the post Pearl Harbor disposition of Americans towards Japan, the end would have been the same. No matter how many battles were lost in 1942, in 1943 the advantage turns to us whether we start in San Diego or Oahu.