How much economic time is left to US?

[S.A. Boggs]

I hope that America [and the world] won't get a white elephant for a Christmas present. For those who don't understand I am not holding my breath on the economy as sooner not later for this economy of ours. I hope I am wrong, very wrong..
Sam

[togor]

"Greatest economy ever" was clearly BS, as it was just built on easy money. Most people were still paycheck to paycheck and most state/local governments were under tight budgets. It was a stockholder's economy with the benefits flowing disproportionally to a few. Now I was doing okay but that doesn't change the fact that many were not.

Now given that corporate debt was already high (believe it or not, some companies were borrowing cheap money to pay dividends to shareholders!), this sudden downturn could easily trigger an avalanche of defaults. The Fed doesn't want that so they're prepared to loan money out like crazy to keep people liquid, to hopefully allow debt to roll over so we don't get the wave of defaults. The idea is to buy time for us to get through this disease without a wave of defaults.

At the corporate level that is straightforward, but what about people out of work who can't pay the rent? There is a group of people (won't say who) who still feel moral hazard applies to ordinary workers, even as they've decided that the larger institutions are too important to the economy to fail. But the thing is....let too many little guys go under and you might have a bigger problem on your hands.

Bottom line, as much as this will drive Vernon and the hyper-polished talking heads in their nice suits and sleeveless dresses at Fox News nuts, the country is long overdue for a discussion about wealth inequality. Because we're on the verge of having a f*ckton of people out there with nothing to lose.

[S.A. Boggs]

"Greatest economy ever" was clearly BS, as it was just built on easy money. Most people were still paycheck to paycheck and most state/local governments were under tight budgets. It was a stockholder's economy with the benefits flowing disproportionally to a few. Now I was doing okay but that doesn't change the fact that many were not.

Now given that corporate debt was already high (believe it or not, some companies were borrowing cheap money to pay dividends to shareholders!), this sudden downturn could easily trigger an avalanche of defaults. The Fed doesn't want that so they're prepared to loan money out like crazy to keep people liquid, to hopefully allow debt to roll over so we don't get the wave of defaults. The idea is to buy time for us to get through this disease without a wave of defaults.

At the corporate level that is straightforward, but what about people out of work who can't pay the rent? There is a group of people (won't say who) who still feel moral hazard applies to ordinary workers, even as they've decided that the larger institutions are too important to the economy to fail. But the thing is....let too many little guys go under and you might have a bigger problem on your hands.

Bottom line, as much as this will drive Vernon and the hyper-polished talking heads in their nice suits and sleeveless dresses at Fox News nuts, the country is long overdue for a discussion about wealth inequality. Because we're on the verge of having a f*ckton of people out there with nothing to lose.

Wealth inequality has been going on since the beginning of time, this is nothing new. 100 years ago with the Robber Barron's Government tried to do something with the income tax and look where we are now. Poverty is constant dependent on how one looks at it. Is poverty not having the latest toy or not feeding the children something today? Compared to some of the world American's in poverty live pretty danged good. Now what happens if the African village comes to say New York City, what then? Are we headed to inflation comparable to 40 years ago or go into a deflation spiral? Will our economic train come crashing to a halt [1929 style] or slowly run out of steam and then coast?
Sam

[Vern Humphrey]

[/B]

Wealth inequality has been going on since the beginning of time, this is nothing new. 100 years ago with the Robber Barron's Government tried to do something with the income tax and look where we are now. Poverty is constant dependent on how one looks at it. Is poverty not having the latest toy or not feeding the children something today? Compared to some of the world American's in poverty live pretty danged good. Now what happens if the African village comes to say New York City, what then? Are we headed to inflation comparable to 40 years ago or go into a deflation spiral? Will our economic train come crashing to a halt [1929 style] or slowly run out of steam and then coast?
Sam

Bob Bechtel (remember him?) said, "You don't understand. Poverty programs are not meant to END poverty, they're meant to make people MORE COMFORTABLE in their poverty"

We will always have "income inequality" -- because people are not equal in talent and ambition. But if we want to end poverty, we have to get serious about it.

The first step is to pull together all the poverty programs (there's at least one in EVERY department of government), put someone in charge, and make him responsible for making people self-sufficient. The second step is to fix our miserable public education system (good luck with that!!)

[togor]

[/B]

Wealth inequality has been going on since the beginning of time, this is nothing new. 100 years ago with the Robber Barron's Government tried to do something with the income tax and look where we are now. Poverty is constant dependent on how one looks at it. Is poverty not having the latest toy or not feeding the children something today? Compared to some of the world American's in poverty live pretty danged good. Now what happens if the African village comes to say New York City, what then? Are we headed to inflation comparable to 40 years ago or go into a deflation spiral? Will our economic train come crashing to a halt [1929 style] or slowly run out of steam and then coast?
Sam

The potential for this outbreak to expose some fissures in society shouldn't be under-estimated. For example, if there are people taking shelter on private islands, using private jets to get there, and other people who have to choose between steering clear of the virus or eating, and who see husbands, fathers, die, then that could leave a bad taste. Especially if government comes to be seen as on the side of the wealthy. The best thing that government could do right now is help ordinary people get a handle on the risks of the virus. That would allow them to work, shop, etc., and not feel like they were just sowing the wind, to an uncertain harvest.

[m1ashooter]

I'm not sure what's going to happen like many of you. I'm a manager of a furniture store in Texas and our business is very good. Probably because of the stimulus checks. What concerns me is the sectors that have really developed over the last 30 years or so and if they are going to bounce back at all. Remember we shifted from a build stuff economy to a lot of service and leisure industries. United Airline might lay off 30% of its work force because of a down turn in business and vacation travel, I'm sure the other airlines are thinking the same. Big chain restaurants are all over the place and I don't see how they can make money without packing the people in and turning tables quickly. Cruise Lines carried over 6 million people last year to vacation spots. I don't see that happening in the future. Then there are the problems in the oil fields and the chemical industries. So its wait and see I guess.

[S.A. Boggs]

The big bus airliners are being retired earlier then expected and the other's put into mothballs. Too many large corporations, states/cities are looking to Uncle Sugar to pick up the tab. Uncle Sugar is printing money as fast as the presses can go and to what avail? I expect that the other shoe will wait until after the election then Katie bar the door. People not paying their rent, mortgage, car payments. How long will the banks hold off until the banks have to act? 08 will look like a walk in the park compared to what could be lurking. The UN is demanding that the well heeled nation chip in $$$ and food for parts of Africa and I feel this time it will fall on deaf ears.
Right now the U.S. is in dire straits regarding the fresh meat industry and I wonder what our grain reserve looks like? Possibility of a strong hurricane season coupled with the continuing drought in the west. I pity those who live in an apartment or in large cities for they could be in for a world of hurt.
Sam

[RED]

The big bus airliners are being retired earlier then expected and the other's put into mothballs. Too many large corporations, states/cities are looking to Uncle Sugar to pick up the tab. Uncle Sugar is printing money as fast as the presses can go and to what avail? I expect that the other shoe will wait until after the election then Katie bar the door. People not paying their rent, mortgage, car payments. How long will the banks hold off until the banks have to act? 08 will look like a walk in the park compared to what could be lurking. The UN is demanding that the well heeled nation chip in $$$ and food for parts of Africa and I feel this time it will fall on deaf ears.
Right now the U.S. is in dire straits regarding the fresh meat industry and I wonder what our grain reserve looks like? Possibility of a strong hurricane season coupled with the continuing drought in the west. I pity those who live in an apartment or in large cities for they could be in for a world of hurt.
Sam

Sam, you are worrying about the wrong things... What is happening is the end of freedom, the end of capitalism. The Democrats/Progressives are succeeding in ruining the economy. They see the virus as a way to kill the American economy, turn millions of formerly hard working citizens into wards of the State. If you are not able to work nor put food on the table for your children, you will vote for the bigger government that will give your kids a can of Vienna sausages and a box of crackers.

Democrats wish 50,000,000 Americans die... they believe that would fix the climate so that earth would survive Trump.

[S.A. Boggs]

Sam, you are worrying about the wrong things... What is happening is the end of freedom, the end of capitalism. The Democrats/Progressives are succeeding in ruining the economy. They see the virus as a way to kill the American economy, turn millions of formerly hard working citizens into wards of the State. If you are not able to work nor put food on the table for your children, you will vote for the bigger government that will give your kids a can of Vienna sausages and a box of crackers.

Democrats wish 50,000,000 Americans die... they believe that would fix the climate so that earth would survive Trump.

I am not worry over something I have no control of so why bother? I now grow inside so I have control of the growing weather and don't "worry" about the outside. Next few days we are going to have a killing frost on outside plants, my tomatoes and beans will continue to grow as long as I feed the wood stoves. 50,000 or one million dead is a statistic and bothersome only to those affected, that is reality. The majority of Americans are upset because their version of "normal" has been greatly disrupted and this makes them angry and yes, scared. Scared not of the disease but that their life won't return to "normal" whatever that was.
I watch people daily go about without any PPE and I ask, "why?" knowing the answer already. Stupidity, arrogance come to mind as I watch potential dead people walking before me. Same type of people who I saw repeatedly go back to jail/prison even when they knew what not to do and were angry for getting caught. People are going to die for two reasons from this disease, that is plain and simple. Being stupid and not taking precautions or other people being stupid and infecting others. The easiest way to beat this disease is not to infect others if one is a carrier.
Sam

[togor]

I am not worry over something I have no control of so why bother? I now grow inside so I have control of the growing weather and don't "worry" about the outside. Next few days we are going to have a killing frost on outside plants, my tomatoes and beans will continue to grow as long as I feed the wood stoves. 50,000 or one million dead is a statistic and bothersome only to those affected, that is reality. The majority of Americans are upset because their version of "normal" has been greatly disrupted and this makes them angry and yes, scared. Scared not of the disease but that their life won't return to "normal" whatever that was.
I watch people daily go about without any PPE and I ask, "why?" knowing the answer already. Stupidity, arrogance come to mind as I watch potential dead people walking before me. Same type of people who I saw repeatedly go back to jail/prison even when they knew what not to do and were angry for getting caught. People are going to die for two reasons from this disease, that is plain and simple. Being stupid and not taking precautions or other people being stupid and infecting others. The easiest way to beat this disease is not to infect others if one is a carrier.
Sam

Some good stuff in that post. Not disagreeing, but putting it slightly differently:

One way of responding to this pandemic would be to get the multiple levels of government working effectively with each other, each taking on the roles it is best equipped to handle, drawing on a range of scientific, economic and yes even social services and religious expertise, to help not only manage the disease, but also the disruptions that come with it.

Most people I think would be fine with this. It is what the Germans are doing and it's working for them. Their focus is on progress without backsliding and because they are seeing that, the government has credibility in the eyes of the people. And yes, some decision-making devolves to the states there too.

However in this country there are people who for various reasons see something to not like in the above, and so they react in a strong negative way. My wife out walking the other day stopped to talk to a woman with a nice greenhouse, who didn't want to talk about the greenhouse, but rather the danger of vaccines. Some people really don't like the possibility that government could come through in the clutch so they cry "tyranny!" But yes like Mr. Boggs I think there is an element of short-sightedness to people who don't want to see the country handle this virus effectively, who would rather just have chaos.

[lyman]

different form of government, and different culture,

hard to do a direct comparison, and likely the German Method, if you wanna call it that , will not work here even if implemented ,

[togor]

different form of government, and different culture,

hard to do a direct comparison, and likely the German Method, if you wanna call it that , will not work here even if implemented ,

Deaths, unemployed, bankruptcies, crime. These sound like statistics that can easily compare across countries.

Germans may employ different means unique to their national character but they work towards the same ends in their land as we do in ours.

Do they not?

[lyman]

they do, but it is still a different culture and mindset,

and a similar yet different type of government,


could we adapt some of the Euro type policies? surely,

will they work here? maybe, but also likely to meet resistance,



why are the Democrats (in power or not) so hellbent on adopting everything euro?

[Vern Humphrey]

they do, but it is still a different culture and mindset,

and a similar yet different type of government,


could we adapt some of the Euro type policies? surely,

will they work here? maybe, but also likely to meet resistance,



why are the Democrats (in power or not) so hellbent on adopting everything euro?

Because the European countries are basically parliamentary systems, without our Constitution -- the people have no rights. As Canadians tell us, they finally got a Bill of Rights, with a catch to it -- the government can infringe their rights whenever convenient.

[togor]

they do, but it is still a different culture and mindset,

and a similar yet different type of government,


could we adapt some of the Euro type policies? surely,

will they work here? maybe, but also likely to meet resistance,



why are the Democrats (in power or not) so hellbent on adopting everything euro?

again point missed

you just scan posts without thinking it seems

point is....the virus is causing basically the same kinds of problems in every country, to different degrees

(to the extent there is a climate connection, we have much in common with Europe)

we can solve it however we want, as can they

so American methods, German methods, whatever works, whereever

but if they get their economy restarted and manage the outbreak, and we do not,

it's going to be pretty f*cking obvious to most people, because the kinds of jobs and entertainment activities people do in Germany are a lot like those in the USA, for most people

but sure there will be some that say Trump is doing a great job no matter what

maybe you'll be one of them

of course explaining how Trump is doing a great job when Gov Blackface sucks at his might take a little effort