January 5, a date which may well live in infamy ...

[Vern Humphrey]

Except liberals in this country have redefined slavery to mean ONLY enslavement of blacks; the billions of enslaved whites doesn't count. Likewise, hanging has been redefined to mean ONLY lynching of blacks; the millions of whites legally hanged or illegally lynched doesn't count either. The rule is, whatever blacks say about themselves cannot be disputed.

And yet the Three Stooges accuse conservatives of trying to censor other people.

[Roadkingtrax]

And yet the Three Stooges accuse conservatives of trying to censor other people.

You do.

[lyman]

The alternative to being a slave was death so there is the choice.
Sam

during which era and what location?

Native American, yes, submit of be kilt,

Africans , whether sold to English/Caribbean/American/Arabic etc countries, could have fought harder I guess (the losers were put in slavery,, not the winners)


ditto the South American Natives

[togor]

but togor says there is not fraudulent voting,,



wondering when the impeachment proceedings will start?

Hey I'm as surprised as anyone that Republicans are letting Biden show a lead in Georgia.

The people running around making inane claims about voter fraud are doing the work of Russian and Iranian regime propagandists, whether they realize it or not.

Alternative facts are hard to live without, apparently.

[S.A. Boggs]

during which era and what location?

Native American, yes, submit of be kilt,

Africans , whether sold to English/Caribbean/American/Arabic etc countries, could have fought harder I guess (the losers were put in slavery,, not the winners)


ditto the South American Natives

60 years ago when I was in grade school I had a history teacher who had a vast knowledge of the subject. I asked my teacher how long slavery had been around and he said since the tribes quite killing their captives. Your guess is as good as anyone's as to an exact date probably with the early humans and Neanderthals.
Sam

[clintonhater]

I asked my teacher how long slavery had been around and he said since the tribes quite killing their captives. Your guess is as good as anyone's as to an exact date probably with the early humans and Neanderthals.
Sam

Of course--what do you do with an enemy defeated in battle? Tell them to go home, rest, rearm, & come back to fight you again when they feel strong enough? That's why the population of ancient Rome was at least 40%, maybe almost 50% slave--peoples who had revolted, or had refused to surrender without a fight. It was understood by all, that when a Roman army appeared before a fortified enemy city, its population had the choice to submit & pay heavy Roman taxes (but otherwise be left pretty much alone), or fight & suffer enslavement if they lost...& they usually lost.

[togor]

Well there was slavery and there was slavery.

In Africa, slaves were a form of wealth, what was owned, as opposed to land, as it was in Europe.

Sugar cane, discovered by the crusaders in the Middle East, gave rise to an unquenchable demand in Europe, and Iberians in particular went looking for new places where they could grow the crop. It's labor intensive, naturally and workers were needed. BTW, it was the arabs who taught the Europeans how to navigate the open seas.

[lyman]

Well there was slavery and there was slavery.

In Africa, slaves were a form of wealth, what was owned, as opposed to land, as it was in Europe.

Sugar cane, discovered by the crusaders in the Middle East, gave rise to an unquenchable demand in Europe, and Iberians in particular went looking for new places where they could grow the crop. It's labor intensive, naturally and workers were needed. BTW, it was the arabs who taught the Europeans how to navigate the open seas.

so now you are a fan of slavery..................................

[clintonhater]

BTW, it was the arabs who taught the Europeans how to navigate the open seas.

Nonsense. Arabs taught the Vikings, greatest open ocean navigators of the ancient world? But the Vikings DID trade with the Arabs--they sold them tens, maybe hundreds of thousands of slaves captured in the British Isles, the easiest form of wealth to haul away in their ships.

[dogtag]

What did slave owners do with slaves who got too old to work ?
Did they eat them ?

[S.A. Boggs]

What did slave owners do with slaves who got too old to work ?
Did they eat them ?

As Lyman pointed out, perhaps Togey can answer this "biting" question. Sam

[lyman]

Originally Posted by togor View Post
BTW, it was the arabs who taught the Europeans how to navigate the open seas.

Nonsense. Arabs taught the Vikings, greatest open ocean navigators of the ancient world? But the Vikings DID trade with the Arabs--they sold them tens, maybe hundreds of thousands of slaves captured in the British Isles, the easiest form of wealth to haul away in their ships.

togor is exaggerating, and somewhat considerably,

just a simple search,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_navigation

Mediterranean
Sailors navigating in the Mediterranean made use of several techniques to determine their location, including staying in sight of land and understanding of the winds and their tendencies. Minoans of Crete are an example of an early Western civilization that used celestial navigation. Their palaces and mountaintop sanctuaries exhibit architectural features that align with the rising sun on the equinoxes, as well as the rising and setting of particular stars.[3] The Minoans made sea voyages to the island of Thera and to Egypt.[4] Both of these trips would have taken more than a day's sail for the Minoans and would have left them traveling by night across open water.[4] Here the sailors would use the locations of particular stars, especially those of the constellation Ursa Major, to orient the ship in the correct direction.[4]

Written records of navigation using stars, or celestial navigation, go back to Homer's Odyssey where Calypso tells Odysseus to keep the Bear (Ursa Major) on his left hand side and at the same time to observe the position of the Pleiades, the late-setting Boötes and the Orion as he sailed eastward from her island Ogygia traversing the Ocean.[5] The Greek poet Aratus wrote in his Phainomena in the third century BC detailed positions of the constellations as written by Eudoxos.[6] The positions described do not match the locations of the stars during Aratus' or Eudoxos' time for the Greek mainland, but some argue that they match the sky from Crete during the Bronze Age.[6] This change in the position of the stars is due to the wobble of the Earth on its axis which affects primarily the pole stars.[7] Around 1000 BC the constellation Draco would have been closer to the North Pole than Polaris.[8] The pole stars were used to navigate because they did not disappear below the horizon and could be seen consistently throughout the night.[7]

By the third century BC the Greeks had begun to use the Little Bear, Ursa Minor, to navigate.[9] In the mid-1st century AD Lucan writes of Pompey who questions a sailor about the use of stars in navigation. The sailor replies with his description of the use of circumpolar stars to navigate by.[10] To navigate along a degree of latitude a sailor would have needed to find a circumpolar star above that degree in the sky.[11] For example, Apollonius would have used β Draconis to navigate as he traveled west from the mouth of the Alpheus River to Syracuse.[11]

The voyage of the Greek navigator Pytheas of Massalia is a particularly notable example of a very long, early voyage.[12] A competent astronomer and geographer,[12] Pytheas ventured from Greece through the strait of Gibraltar to Western Europe and the British Isles.[12] Pytheas is the first known person to describe the Midnight Sun,[Note 2] polar ice, Germanic tribes and possibly Stonehenge. Pytheas also introduced the idea of distant "Thule" to the geographic imagination and his account is the earliest to state that the moon is the cause of the tides.

Nearchos's celebrated voyage from India to Susa after Alexander's expedition in India is preserved in Arrian's account, the Indica. Greek navigator Eudoxus of Cyzicus explored the Arabian Sea for Ptolemy VIII, king of the Hellenistic Ptolemaic dynasty in Egypt. According to Poseidonius, later reported in Strabo's Geography, the monsoon wind system of the Indian Ocean was first sailed by Eudoxus of Cyzicus in 118 or 116 BC.[13]

Nautical charts and textual descriptions known as sailing directions have been in use in one form or another since the sixth century BC.[14] Nautical charts using stereographic and orthographic projections date back to the second century BC.[14]

In 1900, the Antikythera mechanism was recovered from Antikythera wreck. This mechanism was built around 1st century BC.

Phoenicia and Carthage
The Phoenicians and their successors, the Carthaginians, were particularly adept sailors and learned to voyage further and further away from the coast in order to reach destinations faster. One tool that helped them was the sounding weight. This tool was bell shaped, made from stone or lead, with tallow inside attached to a very long rope. When out to sea, sailors could lower the sounding weight in order to determine how deep the waters were, and therefore estimate how far they were from land. Also, the tallow picked up sediments from the bottom which expert sailors could examine to determine exactly where they were. The Carthaginian Hanno the Navigator is known to have sailed through the Strait of Gibraltar c. 500 BC and explored the Atlantic coast of Africa. There is general consensus that the expedition reached at least as far as Senegal.[15] There is a lack of agreement whether the furthest limit of Hanno's explorations was Mount Cameroon or Guinea's 890-metre (2910-foot) Mount Kakulima.[16] Nonetheless, Hanno's maritime travels limit may have been further north, as there are well documented difficulties with the return travel from the regions south of cape Chaunar, which, up to the early 15th century, "had hitherto been the non plus ultra or impassable limit of European navigation" [17][18]

[Vern Humphrey]

Here's an even earlier voyage, sponsored by Pharaoh Necho II:

According to Herodotus, Necho II ordered a Phoenician-crewed fleet to leave Egypt from the east by way of the Gulf of Suez and to return via the Straits of Gibraltar at the Mediterranean's western mouth. Hence, he expected this expedition to navigate around Africa counterclockwise. This would be a long journey, in which the crew would help support themselves by establishing temporary settlements on land where they would cultivate crops during the voyage.

According to the story, after two full years the fleet eventually rounded the Pillars of Hercules (the Straits of Gilbraltar), and returned to Egypt during the course of the third year.

Herodotus finishes the story with a surprising conclusion:

"the Phoenicians made a statement which I myself do not believe (though others may if they wish) to the effect that they sailed west around the southern end of Africa, they had the sun on their right".

This is exactly what they would have seen going west around the Cape of Good Hope at the southern tip of Africa, because the sun appears to the right when traveling westward in the southern hemisphere, but how could Herodotus have known this at such an early date if the journey did not take place?

In addition, Eratosthenes of Cyrene, the Librarian of Alexandria, measured the circumference of the earth as well as the Earth's axial tilt prior to 200 BC.

[clintonhater]

togor is exaggerating, and somewhat considerably,

His point, as always, is to denigrate the accomplishments of European civilization.

[togor]

Nonsense. Arabs taught the Vikings, greatest open ocean navigators of the ancient world? But the Vikings DID trade with the Arabs--they sold them tens, maybe hundreds of thousands of slaves captured in the British Isles, the easiest form of wealth to haul away in their ships.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astrolabe

You didn't know?