That's how you control a border

[dryheat]

-The Hungary-Serbia border runs through a wilderness, tall grass flatlands ringed by imposing clusters of trees and thickets. When I visited a stretch of the Serbian side on a sunny day in June, the landscape would have been lovely had it not been for the gigantic barbed-wire fence running straight through the middle of it.

The border fence had been built three years earlier on the Hungarian side, by the order of Prime Minister Viktor Orb/n, who had sold it to the public as Hungary's first line of defense against an invasion of asylum seekers during a massive surge in migration to Europe from conflict-ridden countries in 2015. Two years later, he sent a bill for the fences construction cost to Brussels, suggesting the European Union should repay Hungary for protecting all the citizens of Europe from the flood of illegal migrants.-

Oh, I know, he's just awful.

[togor]

You went to Serbia in June?

[lyman]

doesn't everyone?

[dryheat]

You went to Serbia in June?

Me and Tucker Carlson.

-Carlson previously commended Orba'n for his policies rewarding Hungarian families for having more children to address a declining birth rate in the country.

"Hungary's leaders actually care about making sure their own people thrive," he said on his show in 2019. "Instead of promising the nation's wealth to every illegal immigrant from the third world, they're using tax dollars to uplift their own people."-

[togor]

Though we didn't realize it at the time, the Communists were doing the West a huge favor. They kept the boarder to the rest of Eurasia locked up tight as a drum. Not only did they keep their own people mostly locked in, they also discouraged anyone from trying to pass through to get to Western Europe overland. Trouble was the Communists had no interest in teaching people how to be responsible, self-governing citizens, so when their regimes collapsed they left behind a mess that was easy fodder for aspiring dictators. China has the same problem today. They've unleashed nationalism among the populace, and to nobody's surprise the peasants can be pretty ugly about it. (Remember that for a long time Communism thought of itself as an international movement with the end goal of uniting the working class everywhere, and nationalism was a potion used by the capitalists to control the population by pitting workers in the different nations against each other.)

Letting former Warsaw pact countries into the EU was a colossal blunder.

[lyman]

Though we didn't realize it at the time, the Communists were doing the West a huge favor. They kept the boarder to the rest of Eurasia locked up tight as a drum. Not only did they keep their own people mostly locked in, they also discouraged anyone from trying to pass through to get to Western Europe overland. Trouble was the Communists had no interest in teaching people how to be responsible, self-governing citizens, so when their regimes collapsed they left behind a mess that was easy fodder for aspiring dictators. China has the same problem today. They've unleashed nationalism among the populace, and to nobody's surprise the peasants can be pretty ugly about it. (Remember that for a long time Communism thought of itself as an international movement with the end goal of uniting the working class everywhere, and nationalism was a potion used by the capitalists to control the population by pitting workers in the different nations against each other.)

Letting former Warsaw pact countries into the EU was a colossal blunder.

how so?

and name the post communism dictators,,,

[dryheat]

Whatdaya mean,whatdaya mean?

[togor]

how so?

and name the post communism dictators,,,

Seriously?

Look at the post-Soviet republics, the former Warsaw pact buffer states run by the local Communists for Moscow. You're going to argue that it's a pretty picture?

[lyman]

no,

just asking you to prove your point,

[togor]

no,

just asking you to prove your point,

The proof is in the governments one sees in the former Warsaw Pack countries and Soviet Republics. Belarus, Uzbekistan, as two off of the top of the list. Right now the Polish government is threatening to cancel the license of a US owned television outlet, because it doesn't tow the Government line. Now if Biden tried that with Fox there would be widespread condemnation, and Biden doesn't try it, but the Poles are still figuring this stuff out.

But does anyone think the Communists raised successive generations of students to be free-thinking, rational citizens in the best spirit of the western countries? I do not. And anyone in those countries older than say 45 came of age fully in the Communist system.

[Art]

The proof is in the governments one sees in the former Warsaw Pack countries and Soviet Republics. Belarus, Uzbekistan, as two off of the top of the list. Right now the Polish government is threatening to cancel the license of a US owned television outlet, because it doesn't tow the Government line. Now if Biden tried that with Fox there would be widespread condemnation, and Biden doesn't try it, but the Poles are still figuring this stuff out.

But does anyone think the Communists raised successive generations of students to be free-thinking, rational citizens in the best spirit of the western countries? I do not. And anyone in those countries older than say 45 came of age fully in the Communist system.

Belarus and Uzbekistan are not former Warsaw Pact countries (as you acknowledge.) They are part of the former Soviet Union who like the Baltic States and the Ukraine seceded during the collapse of the Soviet Regime.

The Warsaw Pact was formed by the Soviet Union of the countries it conquered in the aftermath of WWII as a counter to NATO. They were Albania, Bulgaria, Czechoslovakia, East Germany, Hungary, Poland and Romania. All of these countries threw off their Communist governments in the period immediately before and after the collapse and breakup of the Soviet Union.

The United States isn't in a position to do much stone throwing when it comes to censorship. We've just achieved a much higher level of sophistication.

[togor]

Belarus and Uzbekistan are not former Warsaw Pact countries (as you acknowledge.) They are part of the former Soviet Union who like the Baltic States and the Ukraine seceded during the collapse of the Soviet Regime.

The Warsaw Pact was formed by the Soviet Union of the countries it conquered in the aftermath of WWII as a counter to NATO. They were Albania, Bulgaria, Czechoslovakia, East Germany, Hungary, Poland and Romania. All of these countries threw off their Communist governments in the period immediately before and after the collapse and breakup of the Soviet Union.

The United States isn't in a position to do much stone throwing when it comes to censorship. We've just achieved a much higher level of sophistication.

Would need to see specifics to measure the claim. But do you really think you would have more luck criticizing the government here or in in a former Warsaw Pact country or Soviet Republic?

The above post has echos of a certain circa-2016 politician, in reference to a comparison between the USA and Putin's Russia, saying "you think we're so innocent?" I don't like that line of argument because yes, for our faults I do think we are a better country, and I think the West, with all of its chaotic liberalism, is a better place than those places where the Communists effed everything up. Even counting France!!

Who disagrees? Who thinks the children of Communism are doing it better?

[Art]

We were much more innocent once. That was before incidents like the electronic media refusing to allow the dissemination of the Washington Post stories about Hunter Biden's laptop (since proven true) or the hypothesis that the current plague started in a government lab in Wuhan (now considered quite credible.) I could go on but these two alone make the point.

Tech censorship is an end run around the First Amendment but it's a quite successful attempt by the political left to control the narrative by censoring it's political opponents.

As far as the former Warsaw Republic countries go, it depends, I'd feel quite pretty secure criticizing the governments of unified Germany, the Czech Republic, or Slovakia, acknowledging certain taboos. I understand Lithuania and the other Baltic States are pretty free when it comes to speech too. Being a Euro doesn't mean you're necessarily pro free speech, at least in social areas. Many European countries have laws that can land an old boy in jail for saying things that are too "politically incorrect." Sweden (which actually ranks 3rd on freedom of speech by reporters without borders) comes to mind. The Swedes recently prosecuted and convicted in criminal court a Pentecostal pastor for a sermon in which he accurately stated the biblical doctrine that homosexual activity is sinful. If that were the case here Louis Farrakahn would be in jail tomorrow.

Speaking of the Reporters Without Borders ranking on freedom of speech - the United States comes in 44th. Not terrible but not great. Former Warsaw Pact or Soviet Republics which come in as freer than the U.S. and therefore higher on the scale, include Estonia (15,) Latvia (22,) Lithuania (28,) Slovakia (35,) and Czech Republic (40.) Romania is nipping at our heels at number 48. I believe all of the former Warsaw Pact countries came in at least in the top half though Hungary and Poland's rankings were nothing to write home about they're still freer than about 100 other countries including Russia which comes in at a very Poor 150. Not at the real low end like China or Vietnam but pretty sorry.

[lyman]

Would need to see specifics to measure the claim. But do you really think you would have more luck criticizing the government here or in in a former Warsaw Pact country or Soviet Republic?

The above post has echos of a certain circa-2016 politician, in reference to a comparison between the USA and Putin's Russia, saying "you think we're so innocent?" I don't like that line of argument because yes, for our faults I do think we are a better country, and I think the West, with all of its chaotic liberalism, is a better place than those places where the Communists effed everything up. Even counting France!!

Who disagrees? Who thinks the children of Communism are doing it better?

quit changing the channel in the middle of the conversation,



as Art mentioned, you brought up countries that did not officially exist during the era you mentioned,


as Art mentioned, the Warsaw Pact countries shook off the Communist ideals post breakup,

Bulgaria and Albania tried to go all in on communism, more of the Stalinist type, but failed over a period of time, and are now much much better

as far as better or worse for the citizens,, well that depends on who you ask,

some are considered 'dirt poor' by US and some Euro standards, but are doing well otherwise now,

and it was after Communism fell that the issues in Yugo flared up, seems Tito did a good thing by keeping the Serbs, Croats etc from killing each other all that time

[dryheat]

-Now if Biden tried that with Fox there would be widespread condemnation,-

Little ol' Fox said something negative about Biden? Saint's preserve us. Nothing compared to the avalanche that clobbered the guy elected before hand.
Actually, I'm not following any of the subsequent argument. I'm not all that up on the history of the fall of CCCP. There was some chaos. But that's the East. But Hungary had the balls to say no to the sand dwellers. That was the point of my OP. But, let's talk about anything other than the invasion. Yes, I said invasion. The paralisis that prevents our gov. from recognizing and acting on it. If you need to change a law(or ignore a law like is common these days)do it. I believe the last number I heard was 900,000. Figuring the average height@ 5'1" that equates to about 700,000 regular people. I'm not crazy about any immigration actually unless they are from Sweden. Or Argentinian. They have mountains and cowboys and granddaughters of nazis("Nazi" isn't the be all-end all). They might be kind of normal.

-Call someplace paradise, kiss it goodbye... Eagles