Britain sending 14 Tanks to Ukraine ... ha...

[dogtag]

According to a British Colonel, the Challenger 2 is more or less obsolete.
It hasn't been updated and in any case 14 is a drop in the bucket.
He also claimed that Britain had few tanks and in reality was no longer
in the Tank building business. The German Leopard is what Ukraine
needs and a helluva lot more than fourteen. But Germany says NO.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-64274755

I wish I'd copied the article

[blackhawknj]

The Ukrainians will end up with a hodgepodge of equipment, no spare parts, not enough qualified mechanics. I read an article in the WSJ that said there was a lot of clearing out of the cupboards to support Desert Storm. In the Western Desert in WWII there was something similar to the 18th Century where after a major battle both sides need a long time to resupply, rebuild and replace equipment. And I think what the Ukrainians need are anti-tank weapons, proper training.

[Art]

I would disagree that the Challenger is obsolete. It is a contemporary of the M1 Abrams and like the Abrams has been progressively upgraded.

During the First Gulf War the Brit armor equipped with the Challenger absolutely laid waste to the Iraqui armor it encountered suffering no losses and destroying literally hundreds of Iraqui vehicles.

The only criticism I've heard of the Challenger is it is one of the few modern tanks to use a rifled gun.

While not as speedy as the Abrams it has the reputation of being the most heavily protected tank on the planet, in fact its armor scheme and composition is a state secret. In Afghanistan a Challenger found itself cut off in a town when it threw a track. It was hit at short range by over a dozen RPG-7 rockets and a Milan anti tank missile and nothing penetrated. They did, however render the tank blind by destroying its periscopes and external sensors. The crew stayed "buttoned up" until the "cavalry arrived" and towed them off. The only Challenger ever destroyed in combat was a "blue on blue" incident where one was hit in an open hatch by another challenger killing two crewmen and starting a fire that, in turn, set off the tank's ammunition rendering it a total loss.

The current version is the Challenger 3. Most Challenger 2s are being upgraded to Challenger 3 standards. Those that are not are being "retired." I suspect the tanks the "Ukes" are getting are from the stocks of the "retired" vehicles which will still be vastly superior to the truly obsolete T-72s that make up most of the Russian armor in the Ukraine, the smaller number of improved T-80s and hand-full of more modern but still inferior T-90s the Russians are fielding. Speaking of the T-90 we've been dying to get our hands on one and will now thanks to a captured specimen the Ukrainians are going to make available to us .

Vern, I agree with you on what the Ukrainians need most. The Challenger's are much more sophisticated than anything the Ukrainians have touched to date and will require extensive training. Like all tanks, it will require maintenance, ammunition and spare parts. If we're serious about this we also need to keep the ammo flowing for those 155mm howitzers we've given them, both towed and self propelled and to pass on any 152mm ammo we find laying around for the Soviet era guns they inherited. It'll be a happy day for the U.S. defense industry since we'll have to replace all of the ordnance we're giving them. Not cheap but worth it if it results in the demise of Putin.

[barretcreek]

As Art mentions getting a T-90 is worth a lot of old equipment in trade.

I still feel we are choosing sides in the Spanish Civil War.

[Art]

I still feel we are choosing sides in the Spanish Civil War.

So do I, but as I said, this might result in the end of Putin. If it does, well I'm all for that as long as no American blood is shed.

[dogtag]

But who will replace Putin ? He could be far worse and have an itchy trigger finger.
"Better the enemy you know ... "

[Vern Humphrey]

But who will replace Putin ? He could be far worse and have an itchy trigger finger.
"Better the enemy you know ... "

Deal with him when he comes. We know one thing -- Putin's successor will have a much weakened armed force.

[Allen]

We know one thing -- Putin's successor will have a much weakened armed force.

So will we. We do now.

[Vern Humphrey]

So will we. We do now.

Yup -- and for the same reason, a freakin' communist is heading the nation.

[dogtag]

With Russia's "conventional" Army weakened, it would be folly to
try taking advantage of that as they have thousands of nukes
and if cornered or threatened, could use 'em.

[Art]

To be fair the US has used force too much in the past 20 years and often the outcome hasn't worked out very well at all. I'll also admit that mistakes have been made since the fall of The Soviet Union in dealing with the Russian Federation.

But----

How would Russia be "cornered??" All they have to do is leave their neighbors alone. Should Putin attack a NATO ally (The Baltic States, Poland) he thinks should be part of Russia we'd be in a fine fix. Russia signed a treaty guaranteeing the independence of The Ukraine, we agreed to keep The Ukraine out of NATO and The European Union to keep from provoking the Russian Bear. That hasn't worked out very well; in fact it seems to have had a part in provoking the current war.

The Japanese attacked us because we wouldn't support their genocidal invasion of China by selling them oil and strategic metals. Should we have considered to allow them to use our petroleum and scrap iron to facilitate killing the Chinese? A lot of Americans who died between 1941 and 1945 would have been alive if we had.

If we always used the idea that it could be worse we wouldn't oppose anybody any time.

[Allen]

With Russia's "conventional" Army weakened, it would be folly to
try taking advantage of that as they have thousands of nukes
and if cornered or threatened, could use 'em.

That's probably the only reason China hasn't attempted to jump in and take them out.

[dryheat]

There's plenty of Chinese.

[blackhawknj]

I doubt the Russians will use nukes-think Chernobyl.

[Allen]

I doubt the Russians will use nukes-think Chernobyl.

Yeah, I brought that up before. They want to take over the Ukraine. They aren't going to want to lay claim to a bunch of land with nuclear waste on it.

Their latest threats are to use nukes against the UK for giving Ukraine the above mentioned tanks. I get the impression that Poot'n thinks they are the only country in the world with nukes even though they spied and copied ours.