Installing a scope on a No. 4 Mk 1*

[Merc]

I’ll neck size these cases and see how they chamber and eject. Previous neck sized .303 cases, made by various manufacturers that I reloaded, were often difficult to chamber and eject in my No. 4 due to cases that were bulging.

Does anyone know what kind of powder the Greeks used?

[JB White]

Does anyone know what kind of powder the Greeks used?

Combustible. Definitely combustible.
Seriously, I don't know. Cant remember but recall someone breaking down some rounds years ago when making comparrisons. I cant even remember which site that was on. Ask Lyman as I'm sure he can help you with that. No problem.



Hey Lyman, here comes a bus!!! LOL

[Merc]

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A day at the range with my 76 year old Savage No. 4 Mk 1*. Shooting Greek ammo with the scope was a lot of fun.

The first target was 4 shots aimed at the center at 50 yards. I shot the group after a few scope adjustments to get on target paper. No, I didn’t purposely try to make a face. If I did, it would have been smiling. The group was tight but a bit off center to the right.

The next target was 3 shots aimed at the center at 100 yards. The first shot drifted right and was on the target edge. Some fine tuning was required. The in-between shot was after adjusting the scope 3 clicks left and 3 clicks down and the shot that was in the center of the target was after adjusting the scope another 3 clicks left and 3 clicks down.

The rifle is very predictable and is still an accurate shooter after all these years.

[JimF]

. . . . . .Does anyone know what kind of powder the Greeks used?

I once got a whiff of the smoke from my Greek ammo . . . . .

I figure “ground-up grape leaves” was part of their powder recipie!

[lyman]

Combustible. Definitely combustible.
Seriously, I don't know. Cant remember but recall someone breaking down some rounds years ago when making comparrisons. I cant even remember which site that was on. Ask Lyman as I'm sure he can help you with that. No problem.



Hey Lyman, here comes a bus!!! LOL

thanks JB!!!


I earned that one ,



I honestly have no idea, but if I can remember, I can pull a round later,

I loaded up a bunch of cast boolit loads a few years ago and tried them in a longbranch, and cannot remember what powder I used,

did well tho,, at 100

[Merc]

Powder type isn’t important. I was thinking about getting around to reloading the fired Greek cases but I have several large boxes of the Greek loads which should last for a while. The powder did have a distinct smell to it. I can’t complain about the quality. I was lucky to have a calm day, almost no wind, so I could really see what the rifle was capable of.

[lyman]

I've not noticed much of a smell, but my nose is a bit fried smell wise ,

I did have some Egyptian 9mm once, ran it thru a Mac11,

that stuff stank,, and was smokey

[Merc]

I do the majority of my shopping for shooting supplies at Cabelas and the only .303 British bullets they carry for reloading are soft points and of course, the Greek ammo uses full metal jackets. I’ve had two trips to the range firing the Greek ammo and was impressed with its accuracy both times. Ballistically speaking, is there a difference in accuracy between SPs and FMJs? With all the shortages, I doubt if I could find either one now.

[lyman]

I've only reloaded the cast, I have a ton of HXP and a can of Winchester contract ball to last a long while,

I'll ping a friend that is also on this board, he loads for Enfields, and has some good thoughts and loads for distance,

[Merc]

Thanks. I wonder if the hoarding will stop anytime soon.

[BlitzKrieg]

Soft Point vs BTHP bullet accuracy: yes BC drives accuracy and SP ammo just is not as accurate.

The BC on the bullet is what kills the hunting bullet's accuracy vs. a BTHP and with the Lee Enfield, its a smashing difference. The MarkVII issue FMJ load for the 303 Brit Service rifle had a 174 gr flat base FMJ bullet.
They don't make those bullets any longer but the fable exists that only a flat base bullet will be accurate out of a Lee Enfield and if one looks for bullets...you find the only flat base 174 gr are Soft Point loads. Hunting to 300 yds they are accurate enough for big game. Beyond that they really suffer for accuracy.

I ran a test with my No.4Mk1 (the one I use out to 1000 yds with my 303 Match load) and I shot the 174 gr SPFB rounds and 174gr BTHP rounds. At 300 yds the amount of elevation I needed was 2x more for the SPFB hunting rounds and accuracy was 12 inches on average. The Boat Tail Hollow Point 174 gr bullets brought in 4 to 5 inch groups . Both shot with iron sights. At 600 yds, forget the accuracy of the SPFB hunting rounds, the bullets shot terrible ...in fact 38 inches more elevation needed than with the same load using the 174 BTHP bullets. I could get 18 inch groups with the 174 BTHP easily from 600 yds ..on average. Old eyes ...mind you.

So what is my match load: you can email me and I'll tell you. I find the Hornady .312 diameter , 174 gr BTHP are the most accurate bullets in all my Enfields. Now the Sierra 174 BTHP are .311 diameter and are almost as accurate. I buy Sierra when I can't find the Hornady.312 dia 174 BTHP bullets . Mind you: Hornady makes a .3105 dia 174 BTHP bullet and its great in my M39 Mosins but truly stinks for all my Lee Enfields...No.1, No4 and No.5 rifles.

Now there is a Hornady 150 gr BTHP and I've never used it. Why buy it when price is same as the 174 gr BTHP and the barrels of Lee Enfields were made to fire a 174 gr bullet (remember MarkVII was 174gr ).

So its hog wash Boat Tail bullets don't shoot well out of Enfields, Its hogwash you got to have a flat base bullet and its total hogwash Soft Point Hunting bullets will shoot as well as match grade BTHP bullets. Hunting bullets for hunting at responsible distance and BTHP match grade bullets for precision shooting 100 to 1000 yds.

My sniper team mate has an original No.4 Mk 1 "T" sniper. He shoots my match load and holds 9 & 10 rings at 1000 yds. At our club we use the 600 yd bullseye for 1000 yard competition so figure out the accuracy math he's really getting !

All I have said is worthless if your reloading procedures are half wonderful. You have to carefully prep the brass, precisely weight each charge...not dump them from a measure to your case. You must carefully seat your primers and bullets. Dies....Hornady and RCBS are just fine to 600 yds. Hunting ammo: Lee is just fine.

You want precision : it must be Forster dies or Redding Dies. I've tried all the brands in 303 caliber and what I post here is the truth. I really did not believe that and tried to make Lee dies work to 1000 yds but they can't load long range precision accuracy.

Most here could use Lee dies for their 100 to 300 yd hunting or CMP competition purposes and be shooting as good as their skill is and as good as their barrel is. You need better dies to move off the 300 yd line and you bloody well need the best dies to hit 800 and 1000 yd lines.

Decide what you want to do with your Enfields. Hunt : use SPFB bullets. Precision shooting : BTHP match grade bullets.

and for the doubting Thomas reading this , let me assure you most Lee Enfields have more accuracy in them than most shooters can make use of. I have a 1918 mfg, No1MkIII*, worn bore, tight muzzle. Cast bullets at .314 Diameter with rear sight at 450 : 7 inch groups at 300 meters !! My cast bullets for this old girl are 50 50 lino type to wheel wt material, carnuba red hard lube, gas checks on bullets , cases normally prepped but I've added a M Die step to the process. I use Forster dies.

slug your bores, find out what diameter bullet is right for your Lee Enfield.

[BlitzKrieg]

and while I am in your bunker line this fine evening, a bit from GB forum that I posted to confront all those who snivel about their Jungle Carbines have a wandering zero ....

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?314303-No-5-accuracy-at-600-yds

That is the link and I shot on 28 April 2013 as follows:

Default No.5 accuracy at 600 yds,
Here is todays results. Here are the facts:

Rifle: No.5 dated 1945, BSA manufacture
Condition: mint bore, overall 90% orig. condition
Loads for testing at 300 yds: 148 gr Soviet FMJBT pulled bullets and 4895 powder, Privi cases, Tula Lg Rifle primers
Elevation 13 clicks up on rear sight
Accuracy: 8 inches which is 2.5 max MOA at 300 yds. No doubt old eyes and surplus bullets do not do this justice but I call it 2.5 MOA at 300 yds worst case results.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

600 yds, weather went from sunny to light drizzle rain and I had some beginnings of target acquisition / sight picture issues with iron sights. Eye sight: I give 70% to old eyes and 30 % rain / grey overcast. No winds but we had no wind all day today
Shot Reload 1: the pulled surplus 147-148 gr pulled Soviet bullets over IMR 4895 with 45 clicks on rear sight: no hits on target, went 50 clicks: no hits. I have to assume the rounds are striking low but I ran out of this load and had to stop. Goodness knows when i can find more IMR 4895 powder !
Shot Reload 2: This is my 1000 yd Match loading for the No.4 Long Branch Canuck rifle with 2 groove bbl and awesome accuracy. The load is Varget ,.312 Hornady BTHP in 174 grain weight.
Results: 13 inch group 600 yds at 2 inch below point of aim with sights at 55 clicks UP on rear sight. Then shot two more groups at 600 yds with sights at 56 clicks UP on rear sight and got a 12 inch group and then a 13 inch group with rounds landing 1 inch above point of aim.

The 13 inch group with my match loading is the worst case results for today. Divide 13 inches by 6 (for 600 yds) and its shy of 2.2 inch accuracy or 2.2 MOA for 600 yds. Now, that is not shabby for a short carbine, my old eyes, and the fact the weapon was meant to kill Germans / Japanese , not register accuracy results at 600 yds. I claim my eyes and human error degraded the real performance of the weapon today. Nothing wrong with this jungle carbine. Maybe a small % is my learning curve how to shoot the carbine got into this scenario.

Yup: heard all the tales of wandering zero, lightning cuts on receiver / knox form, snivels about trigger pulls and sights, horrors about recoil and muzzle blast... but you know, I think that is all fog. I own 4 of these carbines and recently decided to get drop dead serious about finding out how good / bad the weapon is and how far I can take it down range. I punched through all the nonsense and frankly, if one can't shoot a No.5 well, that bloke need to try harder. Of course if the condition of ones No.5 is not top form and is shot out, there is no fog involved. All of mine are in top condition. I will admit, it was a challenge but its a challenge you can work through.

[lyman]

Thanks. I wonder if the hoarding will stop anytime soon.

and he made it,


just so you know,


Blitzkrieg is a hellova guy,

until you tell him you like brussel sprouts,,

then he will turn on you,,

[BlitzKrieg]

Just noticed the date of that Jungle carbine test...7 years ago and powder had dried up, I had no idea where I was going to get more IMR 4895. And rolling on to this very day in 2020, the situation is powder has dried up again as well as ammo, pistols, rifles, shotguns in a far worse drought...driven by politics and fear. We recovered off that last drought /panic / scare , hope we so this time as well.

Guess I am 7 yrs behind taking a No.5 Jungle carbine to 800 yards which is the limits of its rear sight. As was the 03A3 rear sight. I'll be fixing that delay shortly for both rifles. Certainly no doubts on either doing a fine showing at 800 yd line with issue iron sights and my match hand load. I do have a 3006 match hand load I use out to 1000 yds out of my Gibbs clone 03A4 sniper rifle at the Quantico Vintage Sniper Match and my last results with that rifle & load was a score of 188 out of 200 yds , with 3x's. Not awful results on a 600 yd bullseye and using issue WWII scope of 2.5 x optical power. My issue 03a3 at 800 yds ...I got the load for it and I know it will hang !

[JB White]

Using flat base projectiles is hogwash?? I beg to differ.
It's been a proven workaround for tired 303 rifles for decades. The same as many other compensating "tricks" to get old war horses looking respectable again.
The vast majority of shooters simply want to print respectable groups between 50 to 200 yards on a nice day while socializing with other shooters. So talking up 1000 yard match loads is moot to most. Those loads might work very well in a nice condition No4 or a low mileage FTR SMLE. That's not what most of us collect.

To get the history, rifles tend to be well worn with less than stellar tubes. Throat/Leade erosion from cordite in service etc. Reloaders need to compensate to get from pie plate patterns to at least fist sized groups on a nice afternoon
Flat base is a recommendation for tired barrels with digestion problems. Most readily admit that many rifles will digest boat tails. Some won't. Therefore those who collect many Lee Enfield rifles may choose to load flat based projectiles into everything. Somehow they can still find FB's.

Hogwash it is definitely not. There have been decades of positive results to show for it.
All information is valuable. Whether or not its applicable is something to be judged on an individual basis.