Van Orden Winchester 70 Sniper

[1shot]

I have a documented Van Orden Model 70 Sniper Rifle that was sent to "QM TIC" in August 1954. Does anyone know what "QM TIC" stands for? My best guess is that it could be Quartermaster - Training and Indoctrination Command. Any help you can provide would be much appreciated.

John

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

I thought the Van Orden sniper rifles were never used by the Corps, but sold by Van Orden and Lloyd to civilians instead. Since Van Orden and Lloyd's shop was in Quantico, why would the rifle be shipped to MBQ? Maj. Land did utilize M70's in 1961, but they came from SOS and commercial purchases, and not from Van Orden. Just curious. I am no expert in this field whatsoever.

Jim

[jmoore]

Marine A5 Sniper, it's entirely probable that M70s procurred for USMC use came from his establishment just outside the base in Quantico, Va. S/Ns can be checked against his records (they do exist and include shipping info). Most however, were team rifles and such.

[1shot]

I always cringe when I hear or see the word never as it relates to collecting US Military rifles, especially sniper rifles. A lot of the documents have be lost or misplaced. But the good news is that new information is always being uncovered. The rifle in question was one of 13 shipped to "QM-TIC" in August 1954. I understand SRS has some data that indicates these rifles were then shipped to Camp Perry from MBQ for the National Matches. I have some of Van Orden shop records for the Model 70's. These consist of index cards with each rifles information on it. Looks like there was at least one other contract from the USMC for Van Orden Special Target Rifles in 1956 (Contract NOm--68438 30Jan56). At least for the two USMC contracts I know about, the Van Ordens had Marksman-type stocks.

I have another Van Orden that was shipped to USARTS in 1955 that has a low comb sporter stock without checkering. The military purchased quite a few Van Orden rifles.

Still would like to know what QM-TIC stood for? Was this the precursor to MCDEC?

Regards,

John

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

I was referring to the Model 70 rifles utilized as combat sniper rifles in RVN, and not rifle team rifles (no holds barred there). The Model 70's used as RVN sniper rifles were recorded by serial number with the assigned Unertl scope and those records still exist, including the repair/destruction/loss records (there were also other models of rifles used). I have seen the Marine records for these rifles, the Model 70's specifically, and discussed at length the source of these rifles with the Marine officer that was in charge of acquiring them. They were all 30-06 Model 70 sporting rifles with no 270's as I have read in another post, that were glass bedded, free floated to the thickness of a dollar bill, with "in stock" 8X Unertls mounted with all work performed by Marine armorers in Naha, Okinawa. I recall none being purchased from Van Orden, and if I recall correctly, they were all acquired in 1961 from SOS, as well as purchases in Japan, Okinawa, and possibly Hawaii, for a total of 120 rifles (memory don't fail me now). I have little interest in these rifles, and therefore did not take notes, but I was surprised by the attrition rate of same. Since many of the men who ran the program and the Naha armory are still kicking, as well as many of the snipers, there is no mystery or surprises surrounding these particular rifles.

I am going to Camp Lejeune in August to do some shooting with the Marine snipers, and one of the original rifles will be present. I hope to get a few rounds through it. The Marine officer who ran that sniper program will be there also, and I can ask him about the Van Orden rifles in a quest for more details if you like. I understand that the original rifles were all well surface pitted, which should be a stand out marker. In addition, all were Parkerized over the pits, as a remedy for further pitting.

As an added note, one might find it interesting that Sgt. Carlos Hathcock's original Model 70 would do no better than 2 MOA. I'll wager that statement will draw a few comments.

I consider a sniper rifle as a rifle purposely built for, or used for, combat sniping. Anything else is a rifle with (or without) a scope on it. Otherwise, my ancient 22 single shot with scope could be considered a sniper rifle. Others may and will have a different opinion.

As I stated before, I am no expert in this field, but my sources certainly are as they "were there and did that". If I have personally misrepresented history in any way, I humbly apologize.

Jim

[1shot]

My question was specific to the first group of Van Orden Winchester Model 70 Special Target Rifles purchased by the USMC in 1954.

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

I understand. I did some searching trying to find the meaning of the acronym QM TIC, with zero luck. Now I am curious too. Maybe some of the sharper guys (than me) will clue us in. I undestand those rifles are quite nice.

Jim

[Bsully]

There were 10 Van Orden rifles shipped to the USMC in different configurations for test and evaluation in 1952. These are listed as such in the Van Orden records. The rifles are not all listed as "sniper" but rather a mix of NM, heavy target and "sniper" and are associated by invoice number and ship date. The first rifles (10) built by Sam Miller on Okinawa for the Marines were built out of standard "pre war" Model 70's with Bushnell 3x9 Scope Chief scopes with command post reticles. The next group built by Miller had the " Marine " 3x9 scope and were a combination of sporters and match rifles. The heavy sporters with the WWII Unertl 8x for the most part were built in Albany, GA and then later revamped in country. If you get me your serial number I can get you the complete information on the Van Orden card. The QM is Quarter master, the TIC well , still working on it. From the records it seems quite a few were shipped to "OIC" at rifle ranges and other QM level depots. This is believed to be Officer in Charge. Will get to the bottom of it before it is all over.

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

Are We talking About the Same Rifles?

From Major Edward Land's book:
...
"The move was well timed as far as the new sniper school staff was concerned. The small nucleus of snipers had spent every waking hour searching for rifles and scopes with which they could begin their own training operations. After Land obtained rifles, he had them all rebuilt and put into match condition by former shooting team armorers. By the time the sniper school staff had fully equipped themselves, the move north was ready to begin. They could start shooting the enemy as soon as they reached Hill 55, their base of operations, thirty miles southwest of Da Nang."
...
"Land outfitted each team of two men with an M-14 for the spotter and one of the odd bolt-action rifles for the sniper. They ranged from Remingtons to Winchesters to M-1D (Korean War vintage) sniper rifles. He married the M-84 scope to the M-l rifles and used a variety of eight- and ten-power scopes, developed by a World War I German sniper named John Unertl, which he mounted on the Remingtons and Winchesters."
...

I don't see any mention of Bushnell scopes. With the exception of the M1A's, it appears they all had Unertls. Just curious.

Jim

[Bsully]

Go talk to Miller or read Senich "The One Round War" page 90. Land has made comment about the Bushnell and how dificult it was to mount. Senich in other volumes has written the same. Senich and Chandler write about the 3x9 "Marine" marked Jap scope and Land has mentioned it before. Just like no M70's made it in the field with with these small scopes. Curious, What Unertl is this on these early Vietnam 70s? wait maybe they are not Unertls, hmmmm. I can get you some more pics if you like

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

Thanks, but.....

Frankly, I can't tell if those are Model 70's or not, much less the time frame. I do know about the oddball scopes that were acquired, and I have seen some of them, but I have never heard anything about any of the Unertl sniper rifles being built at Albany (I was stationed there in 1970). That doesn't mean it didn't happen. As I said, I am no expert in the area of Vietnam sniper rifles, although I have friends who are. I think Senich and his works were a lasting great endeavor (as is Martin Peglar's books), I don't know anything about Miller, I neither know nor am I much impressed by the Chandlers (compared to Senich/Peglar), but Jim Land is a personal friend of mine of whom I think very highly. You (and the original post) have aroused my curiousity about the whole issue, and maybe I will learn something from the exchange.

Jim

[Bsully]

Youre welcome but,

C. E. Lauer (sp) was the gent who built them, the Model 70s at Albany. As far as he was concerned he built them all. At the time Albany was the East coast "PWS" using today's terminology, since you were stationed there in 70 you should know that, yes? Were you in the RTE shop or on the rifle team when stationed at Albany in 70? Don't disagree on the Chandlers and their writing but if you dig deep enough and read it all there is plenty of useful information. The pictures are from a dubious source, The National Archives, USMC Historical Records, listed specifically as Winchester Model 70 sniping rifles with 3x9 scopes date 66-67. Again, have a few more and I guess it is easier to tell what they are when you have them in hand or study a little closer. Odd ball scopes fits right in with the beginning of the program and your quote from Maj Land's book. You might just ask Maj. Land about the early rifles in original sporter configuration and the variable power scopes since you are that close, beats reading about it in a book. See what he has to say. Miller was the gunsmith that built the rifles on Okinawa, no one special.

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

Bsully,

Actually, Maj Land has told me about the Model 70's, and showed me some of the original rifles and equipment. I should have asked more questions. My real interest, as you can probably tell, is the Marine 03 sniper rifles from WWI equipped with Winchester A5's. Just think of all the variables surrounding Vietnam sniper rifles, and multiply that by a thousand, and you have the A5 sniper rifles.

Albany was, and is, the equivalent of the old Philadelphia Depot. When I was there, my primary duty was rebuilding Amtracs. I did a lot of safety wiring of the bolts on the view ports. I also had to "clear" the wrecked Amtrac before the civilians worked on them. I found a lot of ordnance and a few weapons and a human foot still in part of a boot. The inside of the Amtracs always smelled funny, if you know what I mean. It was prior to my tour in RVN, and I had a distinct fear of riding in or on an Amtrac by the time I arrived in country. My tour was spent around the Que Son Mountains area north and north west of Hill 55, I got to tour Happy Valley, the river area, one trip into the A Shau, and other tourist attractions:-). I was very impressed with the beauty of the place, but it had a bite. I only saw one Marine with a bolt action scoped rifle (Rem 700 with Redfield Accu Range), and when I asked if I could look at it, I didn't particularly like his reaction. I was very near Firebase Baldy at the time, traveling with some Korean Marines that had a habit of making me nervous with their insane tactics. There was only one of them that could speak English, and his continual safety was my primary concern. All in all, I kinda enjoyed my tour in country, and myself and a Corporal Pryor got to do a lot of traveling. We used to hitch hike rides from firebase to firebase on any CH46 that came through, suppossedly investigating short fires. We roamed the southern part of I Corps for two months before our command caught up with us. By then we looked pretty ragged and my left hand was in a cast of sorts, but we kept shaved and got haircuts every chance we got, and bathed in the rain. Saw a lot of country (sometimes we didn't know exactly where we were) and a lot of action and got to drink a green beer occassionally. Couldn't ask for much more than that.

How about you? By the way, if Miller built those rifles, he is indeed someone special, same for Lauer. I know some of those guys we read about now, and when I read about what they did in the day, I am astounded. I realize that you cannot identify a hero when you see him by anything visible. Each of us probably knows someone, who unknown to us, has done something remarkable on the field of battle. You just never know unless you ask in the right way.

Jim

[jmoore]

Marine A5 Sniper, I believe Bsully will be incommunidaco for a while. No dramas, just gone.

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

No problem. I hope he is OK.

Jim