The 1911 "fatal flaw" controversy

[Guamsst]

Weapons design evolves hence the hand-and-a-half sword. I have enjoyed the discussion, however, the debate is over for the likes of the FBI and they have moved on; it is a real enough issue for them to demand a design change to the slide release pin..

Yes, weapons design evolves....hence the Glock which does not have this same pin. I stand by my view that if you are putting your finger on the pin while firing then you have the wrong hold for the 1911. As to it being a "serious" issue. It took a very minor change to fix a problem that is very uncommon unless ofcourse you have a hold that pushes on the pin.

In the end, I like a recessed pin better anyways....it just looks cleaner. I chopped mine tonight. It took a good 5 minutes but I tried to make it look as clean as possible.

[usmodel1873]

Looking at a Beretta 92 one will notice that it too has a "fatal flaw" then. The end of the take-down latch protrudes out the right side so if one pushed it while shooting and the take-down lever rotated the slide could fly off the front!

[Ken Hill]

Looking at a Beretta 92 one will notice that it too has a "fatal flaw" then. The end of the take-down latch protrudes out the right side so if one pushed it while shooting and the take-down lever rotated the slide could fly off the front!

Not only that but the M9 (Model 92) can be field stripped by the person you've pointed it at!

[Shooter5]

Its a bit more complicated than that: The M9 has a button/cam with the takedown lever which must be manipulated at the same time to be fieldstripped. The current button model has the button/cam device to preclude simply rotating the takedown lever. (IIRC, this occurred in the 1980s? with the LAPD during some scuffles which led to the current redesign - someone can correct the specific details). It would be a rare occurrence in combat for an enemy to be savvy/strong enough to be able to quickly disassemble an M9 during H2H. Of the few documented cases of H2H where it was going bad for the USA Home Team, the enemy still ended up DRT/DOA/KIA. Example:

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/2003-10-19-silver-star-cover_x.htm

http://web.archive.org/web/20070826140817/http://www.marines.mil/marinelink/mcn2000.nsf/lookupstoryref/200653191254

[Shooter5]

I stand by my view that if you are putting your finger on the pin while firing then you have the wrong hold for the 1911. As to it being a "serious" issue. It took a very minor change to fix a problem that is very uncommon unless ofcourse you have a hold that pushes on the pin.

True: Very Rare, indeed, is the chance of occurring. However, recall the statement it happened 'exactly once' over a decade of deployments in a combat zone: am betting there are zero takers who would agree that this an acceptable limit both in terms of episodes AND the place/circumstances/location of the event.
There is no "wrong hold" for the 1911 or any other pistol (providing your grip and finger placement do not interfere with slide/hammer cycling): there are too many factors involved to predict hand placement and it is impossible to "train" for an avoidance of hand placement, to wit, some factors include; individual grip, plus physical dimensions of the palm/digits along with hand/finger placement along with external factors such as gloves, shifts of the weapon during recoil while firing multiple rounds (which is unavoidable and inevitable) and grip configuration under stress (for example; grasping the weapon in an unplanned manner during a transition drill).
These combine to create a situation that demands a solution to the weapon system itself precisely because the above listed reasons absolutely preclude a 'solution' with each and every end user who could never collectively avoid finger placement over the slide release pin 100% of the time in all situations - odds few would be willing to buck with a combat weapon which by definition should be 100% reliable under all conditions as possible.
Hence, the modern shift to slide pin and frame modification.

[Guamsst]

Maybe I am looking at it from a purist point of view. But, considering the intended use of the weapon when it was designed, I can't see this as a flaw. If it were to happen often in a traditional hold then yes. But from an engineering point of view it isn't a flaw, just a lack of planning for future changes in how it is used. Even the knife is not 100% reliable...even blades break from time to time.

I agree wholeheartedly with taking steps to prevent this from happening (did it myself). But considering the amazing numbers of these pistols in use worldwide in Military, police and civilian use, the sheer lack of numbers of incidents supports the belief that the 1911 is damned near flawless. I know the FBI thought it was a major concern, but then again, they are a government agency so that has to be taken with a very large grain of salt.

[Dave Waits]

There's no fatal-flaw, just a Yo-Yo who wants everybody to shoot his way.

[Nate]

Funny, I have been shooting 1911s for over 50 years and never even heard of this. I think I'll try to duplicate this condition just to see how screwed up you have to do it.

[Shooter5]

Maybe I am looking at it from a purist point of view. But, considering the intended use of the weapon when it was designed, I can't see this as a flaw. If it were to happen often in a traditional hold then yes. But from an engineering point of view it isn't a flaw, just a lack of planning for future changes in how it is used. Even the knife is not 100% reliable...even blades break from time to time.

I agree wholeheartedly with taking steps to prevent this from happening (did it myself). But considering the amazing numbers of these pistols in use worldwide in Military, police and civilian use, the sheer lack of numbers of incidents supports the belief that the 1911 is damned near flawless. I know the FBI thought it was a major concern, but then again, they are a government agency so that has to be taken with a very large grain of salt.

Yes, absolutely true; as designed for its intended purpose of one-handed firing the M1911 does not have a design flaw. Semantically, its moot if, when firing two-handed, whether a 'flaw' exists; the design allows for an extremely rare instance of malfunction.
A significant reason this problem never cropped up before in any significant way over the decades to about the late 1970s was because the modern techniques by Cooper or Weaver didn't gain traction until, say, the 1980s at precisely the same point in time the 1911 was dropped from standard issue. From an evolutionary design perspective; no other modern modern military or police issue sidearm has similar type of takedown system; coincidence? Probably not because all pistols worldwide are now always fired two-handed and a similar design feature such as the 1911 would have been revealed by now. That it has not is partly indicative of the evolution of pistol design to allow for unobstructed two-hand hold without the possibility of malfunction.
The more important point is one you allude to; the 1911 is adaptable to modern usage and that demonstrates its flexibility and usefulness in the modern era. Few other weapons or gear issued 100 years ago stuck around because its relevance declined. The FBI is not the only agency using the 1911 platform; look into the Kimber's LAPD was using; IIRC their frame was modified with a raised portion around the slide pin hole. Check out STI, Wilson Combat, Nighthawk and others for their thoughts and designs on the matter - many mfg's who make guns for serious users address this issue. It is not just a few fringe internet commandos making this stuff up. The latest versions of the modern 1911 the military ordered has similar design modifications - for a good reason. Of course, when spending pallets of money the customer can dictate terms, however, lethal weapons are serious business and those advising contract stipulations tend to ask for features due to real concerns. I would likewise caution for those who scoff at sound technique when shooting two-handed; if you are able to pick yourself and teeth up from the ground - respect for the Quantico Range Masters instruction is warranted and heeding theirs or any other qualified teacher wherever and whoever they are, is advisable. And if you aren't permanently banned from his range, kicked out from the course, dropped from the Academy, escorted from the premises, etc, you may get a second chance to learn how to shoot the modern two-handed technique.

Please feel free to contact any manufacturer and ask WHY their product has the modified slide pin hole features it has (if it has any at all); and please post the results to this forum.

Example from SA Custom Shop:

Other External Modifications:
❑ Standard carry bevel . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
❑ Radical carry bevel (“Soap bar” feel) (Carbon steel handguns) . .
❑ Radical carry bevel (“Soap bar” feel) (Stainless steel handguns)
❑ Nub slide stop (FBI style) using existing slide stop . . . . . . . . . . . .

http://www.springfield-armory.com/armory.php?model=11

http://www.colt.com/ColtLawEnforcement/Products/ColtM1070CQBPM45A1.aspx

http://www.nighthawkcustom.com

http://www.wilsoncombat.com/new/default.asp

http://www.stiguns.com/products/guns/pistols/tactical-pistols/

http://www.kimberamerica.com/1911
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/training/hogans-alley

[Guamsst]

Shooter 5, the answer would be that it is a necessary and great improvement to overcome a seriously dangerous condition.

The truth would be. There is a very slight chance their could be a problem but we can talk it up if we make a very minor modification.

[Col. Colt]

As an old IPSC shooter who has never seen (or even heard of) a problem with the original design on the range, firing and watching many hundred's of rounds being fired, I'd say it's a long way from a "Fatal Flaw". Just don't push on the pin end, folks! If that is too complicated for you, buy a bobbed pin.

Techniques do change in unpredictable ways - that is not a design flaw.

The Glock does have a fatal flaw that guarantees none will be in working order 100 years from now, unlike the 1911, which has made it's Centennial already. (I own a 1915 Argentine that is getting close....) The tiny little "L" leaf spring that Glock uses to hold the slide lock up and keeps the slide on will eventually fail, and the slide will come off the gun. And good luck making and correctly tempering a replacement at home...... CC

[Shooter5]

Shooter 5, the answer would be that it is a necessary and great improvement to overcome a seriously dangerous condition.

The truth would be. There is a very slight chance their could be a problem but we can talk it up if we make a very minor modification.

Yes sir, agreed. FWIW; M1911A2 prototype, IIRC the slide pin is standard but the frame has an expanded dimension near/at the pin hole.

[Ken Hill]

The expanded frame width serves to mitigate stress cracks when the pistol is subject to torque when a light or laser is mounted on the rail. I understand you can "surf" on the wave created by a light or laser mounted on the rail of a Glock 21

[Guamsst]

Well, apparently you are all fools. I was informed buy a guy on facebook that Glock is THE GUN and the ONLY GUN anyone should have and the 1911 is an antique shelf gun not suitable for self defense.......ROFL. I don't know what burned the guy up more, my comments about how wrong he was or the 5-6 likes i got for every comment compared to his zero.

Not trashing the Glock, but there is no perfect gun for everyone. For example, my mom loves the Makarov and is really accurate with it......but can barely reach the trigger. She tried the CZ-52 and fell in love because it has a larger frame, less recoil, more power and a very short reach on the trigger. Many people with large hands would find the opposite true.

[Shooter5]

Earlier on, many Iraq military had various Tariqs, Hi-Power (both local mfg's) and assorted Soviet type guns. Didn't see much praise for the fewer Maks, and less respect for the CZ52s...which was puzzling. Not realizing yet that anything associated with the 'old way' was no longer cool, they wanted anything and everything new and associated with the US Mil.
Even though it was pointed out numerous times the AK is just fine for their needs, purposes, climate and level of care they tend to give weapons...and the fact that the CZ52s could shoot thru a car - most didn't want to hear and have anything to do with the old weapons.