USMC Winchester A5 Springfield Marine Mount Rifle in France 1917

[cplnorton]

I just posted this in a discussion in the sniper forum on the WWI cases. But this deserves it's own post.

This picture is one of the most famous Marine A5 pictures, and is featured in many books, but the location and date was never known.

I have long made claims this was taken in France and was very late 1917. But this has always been challenged and I would like to finally clear this up. I have decided I'm going to start to make a lot of my research public because I can clear up a lot of misconceptions on the Marine A5's, and Marine Corps rifles in general. And I have finally decided I'm going to start to share stuff, instead of just sitting on it.

I actually found this picture in the archives in the WWI Army Signal Corps photos taken in France. The number in the bottom left of the picture is actually the Army Signal Corps number.

I also found a new version of this pic that has never been made public or shown online. The are actually two pictures of this Marine.

When you compare the numbers around this pic which are dated more clear, and the locations given, it appears this is most likely taken in December 1917.

So here you go guys. Hope you enjoy this. So now when you see this pic in books, you know when it was taken and where it was taken.

Image 4337 & the backside of the picture





Immage 4338 & the backside of the pic. This is a new picture and I don't think it's ever been published or posted. I didn't know it existed till I found 4337 at the Archives.

[p246]

Thanks for the info and all the research you do.

[cplnorton]

Hey thanks! I really love researching this stuff. It's a lot of fun.

[Fred]

Thanks Steve!

[danco101]

Photo is in Brophys book on the 03. page 505

[cplnorton]

I don't have Senichs or Canfields book in front of me but I think it's all of those too. It's just never been identified of when and where it was taken.

[Fred]

Well it has now thanks to you Steve. Thanks!

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

Oops!

Just when you think you have all the answers....

US Marines in France, Telescopic Rifle Sight R.jpg

[cplnorton]

I'm not sure what you are arguing Jim? Unless you are now making an argument with me saying the pic was taken around Dec 1917? I based that on the what was around the pic and the fact that it is dated 1917 on #4338.

But actually I think your new proof really doesn't change my initial statement.

All these numbers are the same pic. 4337, 4338, and your alternate number 1537. They are all the same pic. The dates taken on the back of two of these photos contradict each other. One of them is dated 1917 and one is dated 1918. So to me you can only go by the only concrete date, which is on 4338. Which it says it was received on Feb 5th 1918.

So that picture was received in the states on Feb 5th, 1918. It was published in a May 1918 book, so I really have no doubt the date of it being received of Feb 5th 1918 is correct.

So at this time it took on average 2 weeks for a boat ride back to the states, so you are talking if this pic was even was taken in 1918, it had to be in the first couple weeks of January 1918. And that is even without the contradiction of one pic being dated 1917.

Which again I said it was probably taken around December 1917. So I'm not what the argument even is? Unless you are trying to argue a couple weeks? Or do you have anything with a concrete date and just not a generic date of 1918?

This is the May 1918 publishing of the catalogue numbers being all the same.

[bruce]

Great picture. Question. Is that the best scope that was available for use by US forces in that era? Looks like it would be better suited to use on a .22 rifle. Sincerely. bruce.

[cplnorton]

Great picture. Question. Is that the best scope that was available for use by US forces in that era? Looks like it would be better suited to use on a .22 rifle. Sincerely. bruce.

Nah, the A5 was outdated even by WWI. Winchester was selling the Military on their Model of 1918 Sniper scope mounted on a Sporterized WRA 1917 rifle.

Springfield Armory was focused on going to German Glass (Zeiss and Goerz) on the M1903 until WWI started and fell on WRA as the backup. Which even to WRA they state the A5 was outdated as early as 1917 that I have seen. Winchester states many times during the war that we will sell you these A5's as a tempory filler until the new model of 1918 scope is finished.

But even the Model of 1918 scope by WRA was copied off the German Glass of the time. It's just the war ended without it being finished and Frankford Arsenal picked up the design off WRA but couldn't get a version that could pass the trials either. And it was finally scraped in the mid 20's.

But if WWI hadn't started so early. You would have seen a M1903 with German Glass as the sniper. They were focused on it till the war started.

[cplnorton]

By the way the biggest complaint coming back to WRA from the Marines and Army using the A5's in France in WWI. They weren't water proofed.

Which those scopes were never meant to be water proofed. So WRA was focused on trying to find a simple solution on the water proofing. But the war ended. And like I said WRA put minimal effort into the A5 during WWI. They were always sold as the backup, temporary rifle to be used till the Model of 1918 was fielded.

WRA was totally focused on the 1918 sniper. But they had huge orders of them. About 60k complete rifles and scopes. And 35k spare scopes. So nearly a 100k scopes was a huge order for WRA.

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

I'm not sure what you are arguing Jim?...

Arguing? You said you like to see alternative thoughts on subjects, so here is mine. First of all, you and I both know the pictures are not filed in chronological order, so forget the bracketing idea for a valid date taken. After looking at many photos in the archives, I realized there was a whole series of photos with that "Marines in France" heading, yet most of them are taken by different photographers. Kind of odd they would all duplicate each other's heading. Taken as a whole, it appeared someone was putting together a publication, probably entitled "Marines in France", early in 1918, and they were handpicking photos from the files. Note we have absolutely no idea when the file numbers were added to the photos. The picture in question was most likely taken in the US in 1917, but it served the purpose for which whomever was cherry picking photos for a purpose - most likely a USMC propaganda publication. This was a common practice as we all know.

There is no way you, nor me, can accurately date that photo; and nothing about it indicates it was taken in France regardless of what you were supposedly told. Why three file numbers for a single picture? I think it was because it was used for propaganda purposes and was cropped.

That's my alternative thought.

[cplnorton]

Well this is what I know.

1) The actual number in the lower left hand corner of the photo is an Army Signal Corps number and was only put on photos taken in France.

2) The photo was first published in May 1918 in a book that was ALL photos taken in France.

3) The picture is filed at the National Archives in pictures taken in France in WWI.

4) The pic is one of a series of thousands taken in France, that actually are in pretty good chronological order date wise and also location wise. You can tell a
lot about the date and location when you actual see the order of photos.

4) The picture is Titled, "Marines In France."

5) The Marines Corps History Dept which details all the pics from France, says this picture was taken in France.

6) Steven Girard who is the best WWI Marine historian for WWI also details this picture as taken in France, and will detail where it was taken if you want to
ask him.

7) There are Marine photos in France with tents and wearing Marine uniforms with campaign covers at this same time. This isn't the only picture like
this.


Honestly there is absolutely no proof that this picture was taken anywhere but France. And if you have any proof, I would love to see it.

[cplnorton]

The pics are in really good chronological order. You just have to find the chronological order that was recorded in 1918. You can't piece this together the way it's filed today. You have to find how it was filed back then. It's hundreds of pages long and you can follow where they move, in order. Not just the Marines, but the Army as well. It's all in groups.