The Sissification of the Service Rifle- time to vent.

[Sights]

Based on this rant.....that "absence" has to have been measured in DECADES. Most of what you're bitching about has been SOP since the late 1980's!



Starting in position is new, and is only the current rules in NRA, not CMP Service Rifle. As for the empty chamber....that's been the rule for at least 30 years for everything but a Garand! You may need to get out a little more!



Dude....my XC M14 that I shot in the 80's weighs more than that.....so did yours if you were smart and had a decent barrel! BTW, 15 lbs is light for a competition AR....16-17 is more the norm!



And just who in serious competition (other than Maury, that is) shoots an M1? 97% of the rifles shooting Service Rifle at the Nationals last year were AR's. In the Games Matches....who cares as long as it's safe! You are demanding a solution that is largely in search of a problem to solve!



Lotsa luck...and of course the game is completely rigged....but if you don't play, you can't win! So go for it....get your boxers in a bunch....rant to your hearts content! But be advised....bigger dogs than you have already chased that particular rabbit around the woods and gotten nowhere! Don't like it....shoot CMP!

Hey John,
Elloquent is as always.

Hope you are well,

Brian aka "Sights"

[M1Tommy]

I'm not really "anyone" in this world but I'll share a thought that's been rolling around in my noggin, that may touch on this subject, a little.

If someone is getting too 'seasoned' to make all the positions, why not stop trying to win that stage, and put time and energy into coaching others? Is this way off base?


Tommy

[joem]

I had to quit high power a few years ago. Too many things worn out, both knees, 3 disks in back, right shoulder and arthritis in hands and a bad ticker, plus a few other things.

[arcticdog]

Why would you want to deny someone, because of their age, or silght infirmity that they love doing?

I agree +1! In general, I don't like preferences. I think 'riflemen' should be able as well as capable. For those who need to push the dinner plate away sooner and walk an extra block, this rant is for you. I like a "Rattle Battle" to show people can still advance all 4 stages and shoot. Here, better physical condition is a necessity.

But - exceptions need to be made. For example, at my rifle club, there are several veterans with service-related injuries who need an adjustment in position - prone, sitting, or other accomodation - to shoot an M1 Garand or milsurp bolt action. They've more than earned that IMHO. Ok, how about a group of youngsters at the range who normally are gamers and out-of-shape? We certainly don't want to turn away our future shooters and Second Amendment supporters with real rigorous physical standards to just go to the line. When these young shooters seen able-bodied shooters doing well, it gives them something to aspire to. Coupled with positive motivation, they can get there, too.

Since we shoot for fun and not a professionals - no one I know pays to see a match, they pay to shoot in one - then we ought to get as many shooters involved as we can.

[arcticdog]

I'm not really "anyone" in this world but I'll share a thought that's been rolling around in my noggin, that may touch on this subject, a little.

If someone is getting too 'seasoned' to make all the positions, why not stop trying to win that stage, and put time and energy into coaching others? Is this way off base?


Tommy

Most of us fgure out when the sport's demands are too rigorous to be a much of a competitor and then we hang it up, at least on that stage!

Echoing the above sentiment, if you have the patience to spend time with others and impart your knowledge to better the inexperienced shooter, that is as great an achievement as any in competition. I can say that because very capable shooters, who have won matches at the state level, get as much or even more pleasure from taking beginner shooters to the level where they compete and do well in national competitions, from air rifle to M1 Garand. They will be remembered for that more than metals won.

[Griff Murphey]

Generally speaking, I support allowing any shooter who can fire safely to continue to shoot as long as possible. At the Texas Garand Championship there is a WW2 Vet. ex-Major who shoots from a benchrest. I think they count his score just like anyone else's but I don't think he is near the top. One sport I am involved with involves some "run and gun" events and we had one shooter who was going down with some idiopathic neuropathy and everyone really pitched in to allow him to shoot a couple of matches more than maybe he should have. As far as "the drop" my sitting one is not pretty any more... I feel I am still safe, though, and I am sorry that NRA has dropped "the drop." I would say it should have been optional, or by waiver.

I do walk every other day; If I were to give up shooting I might not be motivated to try to be able to "hack it" and do what exercise I do in fact do. I would leave some of the younger guys with the comment that when you are older and dealing with some of the losses in skill and ability, you may be able to appreciate how much marksmanship will still mean to you even though you may not have the ability you had at age 25, 35, or 45.

[Chris F]

The NRA for as long as I can recall allowed medical waivers for those unable to assume the prone or sitting position from a standing start. Not long ago, they started allowing Seniors to remain seated while others did the standard "standing to sitting". Shortly after that, there was some discussion about the safety of assuming a sitting or prone position from a standing start. Muzzle's were said to be unsafe during the maneuver. Around the same time, a prominent many timed champion had a double knee replacement and was granted a medical waiver allowing him to remain seated. Next thing we knew, NRA changed the rule so that you not only didn't have to rise to a standing position before assuming your sitting or prone, but were prohibited from doing so. You can speculate for yourselves as to the reasons for the change.

CMP has held the line and shooters still stand to my knowledge.

BTW, my AR is pretty well shy of 15 lbs. But my M1A is probably closer to that weight.

[remus]

The rule change to remain in position for the rapids is not going to go away. Some may not like it, some probably do. Personally I always liked the idea of getting into position, but it just isn't going to happen in an NRA event anymore.

My thought are that the rule change applies to everyone on the line. It allows the older, less nimble of us to begin our string in position which may be a little easier for us to do. On the other hand it allows the younger more nimble to begin their string in position also. Who is being mistreated by this ruling? If it helps the older shooter, it damn well should help the younger shooter too. Who is going to benefit the most? I don't know.

Some of us just don't like the old and fast rules that we are used to and have shot under for years to change. Maybe we are afraid of change. I know that my rapid sitting scores have not improved significantly just because I can begin my string sitting already. They should have but they have not. Hummmmm, food for thought here.

[canes7]

Wow.. Maybe I should go back to playing ice hockey and demand that the goalie move out of the net when I have the puck or demand that the younger, faster guys not be allowed to check me into the boards. Fact is I got too slow and had to give it up... so I took on HP as my new sport. At 40 Y/O, after beating on my body for 25 or so years, I can understand the guys who have trouble getting into position. I have to believe that there is room for everyone in this sport, but not everyone will fit into every event. Keep your rifles and find the right event for you..

[mikekj]

Well, after reading this thread and rolling it around in the ol noggin for awhile, here's an unsolicited opinion.

First of all, this is not combat, has nothing to do with combat, no matter what you've heard. This is a GAME. Most people do not live and die here.

2) What in the heck does standing to sitting and prone have to do with anything. Why have a prep period to build a good position, then break position to stand, then get back into some close to position that was built prior? That's just dumb.

3) To take some of the opinions stated here to the logical conclusion, they (NRA) should outlaw match bbls, match sights, match triggers, match ammo, etc. You shoot stock as-issued guns and issue fmj ammo. No more 80 grainers at 600 yds boys and girls. No more shooting jackets, no more stock weights, etc.

4) God forbid someone should have some sort of accident and become temporarily or permanently disabled. I know from experience, that all it takes is a broken ankle, to not be able to go into position from standing, ever again. Are you going to tell me that because of that, you don't want me to compete with you anymore. Am I to be bannished to long range prone from now on?

5) Give me awhile and I'll think of some more rants.

[John Kepler]

Gee....when my knee blew out I had to quit playing football and lost my scholarship...no one even hinted at changing the rules of the game so I could keep playing! If you can't do it, you can't do it, and try to accept that with some grace. If you don't fit the rules....tough!

[mikekj]

Gee....when my knee blew out I had to quit playing football and lost my scholarship...no one even hinted at changing the rules of the game so I could keep playing! If you can't do it, you can't do it, and try to accept that with some grace. If you don't fit the rules....tough!

So you would let the sport die a slow death rather than adapt and adjust where necessary?

And can you honestly tell us that if a wounded and handicapped soldier, who wanted to start NRA Highpower, you would tell him/her "TOUGH"?
I'd like to be there when you got your ass kicked by that soldier. Or his friends.

Anyway, the sport belongs to the NRA. They make the rules, and if you don't like them, (to quote you), TOUGH.

[John Kepler]

The sport has always accomodated physical limitations with individual waivers within the confines of the existing rules. The physical limitations of your hypothetical "injured vet" being more than enough handicap to keep the playing field level. No one EVER kept such an indivdual out....quite the opposite. So....nothing was broke until the NRA insisted on "fixing" it!

As for the NRA and it's rules. Thankfully, as a Service Rifle shooter, I have an alternative...I can shoot CMP Matches where the rules still honor the sport. I'm voting on the rule changes with my money and my level of participation in NRA events.

[PhillipM]

I read that F-class came about from some senior shooters who were no longer competitive as a fun way to still compete. Perhaps something similar could be tried here.

[John Kepler]

F-Class is already there! There are all kinds of " belly" matches. Hell.....there's Benchrest! There are PLENTY of venues for those that can't physically hack XC shooting any more. Why screw up that specific venue for those that can to accomodate those that can't? Don't make sense, and I will continue to vote on the stupidity of the current rules with my feet!