The Sissification of the Service Rifle- time to vent.

[Col. Colt]

Just saying, if it's Service Rifle, the rounds should all have to fit in the magazine - if not, you're bogus. (I'm not too keen on fifteen pound service rifles of any kind, by the way.) If that creates a disadvantge on the range, it should - that's reality - the real ballistic limitations of the 5.56MM. Which, again, is why we need M14s in every squad to take care of what the mousegun cannot. CC

PS - Since when was Service Rifle Marksmanship Competition "just a game"? To who? When you have to put the sights on a human being, it works, just like on the range - if your practice was at all realistic. Alvin York shot for beef (just sport?) - and killed a lot of Germans, too. CC

[John Kepler]

Just saying, if it's Service Rifle, the rounds should all have to fit in the magazine

Why? It's NOTHING new! My 600-1000 yd .308 loads for my M14 weren't loaded to mag length.....a trick I learned from the Marines back in the "Dark Ages"! There were long-standing "unconfirmed" rumors that the military teams routinely "altered" the ammo they were issued by the DCM at matches by "breaking" the tar seal in the neck with a Lee Loader and "adjusting" the the OACL for the Long Lines. And THAT was something that my Grandpa said was done to the issued ammo if you got the opportunity BEFORE WWII! So just where is this "ideal" shooting environment you seem to have your boxers in such a bunch over......it hasn't existed in Service Rifle in my lifetime or yours! So yet again, the "Flat-Earthers" are heard from!

PS-There is a formerly 15 year-old Syrian kid "enjoying" his 72 Virgins because my son the E-5, a Junior HP Competition shooter with his 15 lb rifle and non-mag length ammo put one in the Hadji's 10-Ring as he was drawing down on a Humvee with an RPG from 370 yds (I sent James to the Sandbox with a Jewell trigger and a couple boxes of handloaded 75 gr match ammo). It's the man, not the ax that fells the tree!

[John Sukey]

Would that we had a time machine to make us all 18 yr olds again
I get the impression that some people want us to hang our rifles on the wall just because we can no longer bend in the right places.

[John Kepler]

There are plenty of other venues to shoot in that don't require "bending in the right places". Why dismantle a sporting venue to accommodate those that should be moving on? I'm close to not being able to do it any more, and could have had a "medical" 10 years ago! I will NOT take one, and will either "move on" or "hang my rifles on the wall"! If you can't run with the Big Dawgs.....just stay on the porch.......don't hobble them to make you feel better! "Quis in Tartaro communis esse vult?"

[Griff Murphey]

I may come up to Perry after all, just to hold up the match scroofing around the firing line, just to aggravate you, Kepler. I may ask to get squadded close enough to you to fire on your target.

[John Kepler]

The way things are going Griff....you and I can probably see who can "scroof" things up worse!

I take my lead from my Dad. Pop lived for shooting HP and we shot together for many happy years. But I remember the day when he just couldn't get into sitting, dumped the clip out of his trusty old Garand and walked off the line for good. He coached, he volunteered, he shot some Long Range...but he never shot XC again...and never looked back. Dad died in August, just before his 85th birthday (and right after his Grandson and I shot the Nationals)...and our last lucid discussion involved how glad he was that he didn't try to "over-stay" his time in HP. He lived long enough to get thoroughly PO'ed at the NRA for "b!tching up" Service Rifle, and let them know about it in no uncertain terms.

And Griff....nothing would please me more than shooting with you while I still can....but we'll do it "old school" or not at all. You can crossfire all the 10's on my target you want!

[fredtheobviouspseudonym]

Yeah! My Grandpa was one of them!

As I remember Hatcher had a story about that -- the old time National Match shooters were irate when the Army issued that newer, lighter service rifle with the short barrel and the new cartridge. No way that new piece of [deleted] would ever replace the good ol' Krag.

EDIT: Sorry -- forgot I posted in October.

[alibi]

The National Match Course and the police Practical Pistol Course started out as an attempt to simulate combat conditions to better prepare soldiers and law enforcement respectively for actual situations. Both of these courses of fire were innovative for their time. but have evolved into the use of firearms and equipment that would rarely if ever be used in tactical situations. I.e. the firearms are modified and "tuned" to improve accuracy. Other modifications and equipment "allowed" would not likely be used in tactical situations. Accomodations for people that would never be allowed in a tacitical situation is hardly surprising. I thought the NMC started going down hill when they went to digital targets, and was seriously damaged when we were allowed to place the magazine or clip of ammunition on the ground rather than in a cartridge belt or load bearing magazine pouch. Then came the requirement for those big bright chamber clear devices! (What the heck is wrong with shooting your buddy's toe off?)

Other combat simulation courses have been devised by the military and law enforcement that more closely simulate tactical situations and the previoulsy mentioned courses of fire as modified are no longer serve any purpose in the military or law enforcement.

As an exercise in the traditional purpose of the NMC I fired the course with an unmodified M1903 without any special equipment except an O'Hare micrometer, spotting scope, eye protection, and shooting glove. Oh, and a mat - didn't want to damage my original WWI uniform. Still not sure if I "qualified" as I wasn't sure how to convert the "X" target score to the "V" target score...must have been expert though.

[PhillipM]

The National Match Course and the police Practical Pistol Course started out as an attempt to simulate combat conditions to better prepare soldiers and law enforcement respectively for actual situations. Both of these courses of fire were innovative for their time. but have evolved into the use of firearms and equipment that would rarely if ever be used in tactical situations. I.e. the firearms are modified and "tuned" to improve accuracy. Other modifications and equipment "allowed" would not likely be used in tactical situations. Accomodations for people that would never be allowed in a tacitical situation is hardly surprising. I thought the NMC started going down hill when they went to digital targets, and was seriously damaged when we were allowed to place the magazine or clip of ammunition on the ground rather than in a cartridge belt or load bearing magazine pouch. Then came the requirement for those big bright chamber clear devices! (What the heck is wrong with shooting your buddy's toe off?)

Other combat simulation courses have been devised by the military and law enforcement that more closely simulate tactical situations and the previoulsy mentioned courses of fire as modified are no longer serve any purpose in the military or law enforcement.

As an exercise in the traditional purpose of the NMC I fired the course with an unmodified M1903 without any special equipment except an O'Hare micrometer, spotting scope, eye protection, and shooting glove. Oh, and a mat - didn't want to damage my original WWI uniform. Still not sure if I "qualified" as I wasn't sure how to convert the "X" target score to the "V" target score...must have been expert though.

200 standing, 300 sitting, 600 prone. At 200 and 300 battle sight only and windage set to zero.

http://www.archive.org/stream/usmarinecorpssco00harlrich#page/12/mode/2up

[Greg Ficklin]

Known Distance rifle qualification has never been a simulation of combat, or any tactical scenario. It is the most basic, and fundamental practice of marksmanship. There is no enemy, no cover, no concealment, no squad movement. Only the basic requirement to hit the target consistently, in a controlled environment. This basic standard allows for measurement of ones ability to apply the very basic knowledge of marksmanship without artificial support. It is as relevant today as it was in 1900. It is a fundamental, and basic military requirement (at least in the USMC), in the same respect as drill, customs and courtesies, and basic knowledge testing. The NMC very closely resembles known distance rifle qual. The NMC is a game that tests your abilities to use the fundamentals as measured against others in a particular skill classification. In a military situation it is basic training. But National Match Service Rifle is a game. Known Distance rifle qual is the foundation of all advanced combat training, in the same way that basic drill teaches a group to act as one, with instant response to orders. Neither are simulations of combat, and never have been, but have a bearing on combat effectiveness as basic military requirements.

[Dollar Bill]

Thank you for that link and all the information you, as well as others put out here. I grew up in a family where someone in every generation served, whether it be MC, Army, or Navy, but no one was involved in the shooting sports. I started myself shooting smallbore when my father passed and in the interviening 30+ years have come to deeply rely on gentlemen like you to keep rekindling my sense of history. It's why I'm just starting to do what you guys did 30+ years ago. Although I still do not have anyone within a days drive to shoot any type of match with, I'm busy working up loads and shooting (sometimes) out to 600 yds with my 1903 and my new-to-me Garand.

Anyway, I just wanted to drop a note of Thanks to everyone here.

Best Regards,
Bill

[Chris F]

Welcome to the sport. I hope you get to shooting soon. I think you will find the highpower crowd to be a good, bunch always ready to offer help to a new shooter. If I may offer a bit of advice related to this thread; shoot for the enjoyment and to meet your personal goals. That way every day can be a good day shooting. Winning can also bring rewards, and pursuit of that can come down the road. But for now focus on improving within yourself. Shoot what you want within the rules of the sport and the safety rules. Good luck.

[JimF]

Welcome to the sport. I hope you get to shooting soon. I think you will find the highpower crowd to be a good, bunch always ready to offer help to a new shooter. If I may offer a bit of advice related to this thread; shoot for the enjoyment and to meet your personal goals. That way every day can be a good day shooting. Winning can also bring rewards, and pursuit of that can come down the road. But for now focus on improving within yourself. Shoot what you want within the rules of the sport and the safety rules. Good luck.

This advice has got to be about the VERY BEST I've heard/read on the subject of competition shooting for the "newby"!

Competition shooting matches CAN be very intimidating to the "new" guy on the line . . . . .

As I said to the new, junior shooters in the club I was in . . . . .

"Nobody here on the firing line gives a hoot about YOUR score . . . . only their own!"

Concentrate on what YOU are doing . . . ignore the other doings around you!

Be safe . . . . and above all, . . . .

Have fun! --Jim

[Chris F]

Thanks JimF,
I can only hope that the Original Poster takes it to heart as well. FWIW, Maury Krupp epitomizes that philosophy. He competes with his rifle of choice, understands the limitations, and does not try to rationalize his choices by degrading the equipment of others that remain within the rules as written. He is as knowledgeable about the rules as any and has an appreciation for the history of the sport. And most importantly, he is out there shooting in matches and not arm chair quarterbacking. We need more like him.