Meanwhile in Sweden

[leftyo]

building a wall isnt a bad start, but we should also actually enforce our existing laws, instead of passing more that wont be enforced. we should quit with the revolving door on jail/prisons. 3rd strike, not your out, 3rd strike you die because you have proven the be a detriment to society! commit a felony while possessing a firearm, sorry you die! might not solve our little school shooting problem, but im thinking it will reduce the number of those out there who kill one or two at a time and stay on the streets or in and out of jail. lets be honest many more people are killed daily from these dirt bags running the streets that kill someone now and then. the numbers from the school shootings arent even a statistical blip. punishment doesnt fit the crime, it is not a deterent and your law is meaningless.

[Vern Humphrey]

building a wall isnt a bad start, but we should also actually enforce our existing laws, instead of passing more that wont be enforced.

If we enforced our existing laws, the problem would go away. We attract illegals with all the free stuff we give them.

You want to attract deer? Put out deer corn. You want to deer to go away, stop putting out the bait.

You want illegal immigration to stop? Stop putting out the bait.

[togor]

You mean meatpacking plants?

[JB White]

I'll boil it down to 2 things. Only sell to people who pass a background check. Keep records of all firearms sold, including buyer ID, so that if God Forbid law enforcement needs to trace your old firearm after a crime, you'll be in a position to assist.

I would like to change the last word in that statement and add one. Much closer to the truth from past experiences. Fortunately they weren't my own. Unfortunately they were the experiences of one friend and another coworker. Several years apart.

....you'll be in a position to BE ARRESTED

That is what happens first when paperwork gets traced to the "last known owner" even if many years have gone by. Then, see if you can find and read an old faded receipt even after the laws says you no longer need to save it.
They both got out of it, but it costs to do that.

What you have described above is exactly one of the ways the Illinois FOID system works. I only briefly described one of the problems.

[togor]

JB, Illinois is in a tough position because there is a high demand for illegal firearms in the metro Chicago area. And the state tries things, but legal FTF sales in WI and IN service that firearms demand, culminating in illegal IL sales that increase the total volume of illegal guns in Chicago.

Maybe Illinois should build a wall? I don't think the cheeseheads will object.

[leftyo]

You mean meatpacking plants?

maybe like enforcing our immigration laws. your liberal mindset is really messed up. blame the guns for crime, blame the meatpacking plants for crime, how about blaming the criminals!

[steelap]

If we don't want certain people to have guns because of what they might eventually do with them then we need to look at doing things that will make it harder for them to physically acquire guns. Just common sense.

I am glad to see that you approve of vastly expanding capital punishment. You are correct - once an individual is executed it is unlikely that he will acquire another weapon.

Just yankin' your chain....

[leftyo]

I am glad to see that you approve of vastly expanding capital punishment. You are correct - once an individual is executed it is unlikely that he will acquire another weapon.

Just yankin' your chain....

oh he gets it. it is just counter to his sheltered life brainwashing.

[steelap]

I'll boil it down to 2 things. Only sell to people who pass a background check. Keep records of all firearms sold, including buyer ID, so that if God Forbid law enforcement needs to trace your old firearm after a crime, you'll be in a position to assist.

In reality what you are proposing is universal registration of firearms. This is, as shown elsewhere, the first step to forced confiscation. Then for sure the only people to have firearms will be the Government and the criminals.

I don't think that is what you want, but universal registration is the only way for your proposal to work. It is just like the California Armed prohibited persons System - the only way it can effectively work is with universal registration of every firearm.

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yup, but it sure isnt as common sense as you said. sadly we have folks like sandpebble who straw purchase for others. would be nice if creeps like that didnt exist, but sadly even if they didnt, those that choose to break the laws are going to find a way. i still stand by more laws and regulations will have little to no affect. we already dont enforce some 20,000 firearms laws, and when they are they are just used as toss outs in court for those who commit heinous crimes.

I seriously disagree with almost everything Sandpebble says, and really hate his ad hominem attacks, but the situation he described in his thread (that i remember) was a legal FTF, and not a straw purchase. The thread I refer to was the one where he described taking an antigun friend to a gun show, and buying a gun from someone outside the venue. he regretted doing this, as he said it showed how easy it was to purchase weapons without a background check.

If I missed his admission to a straw purchase in another thread, please point it out to me.

Thank you.

[leftyo]

In reality what you are proposing is universal registration of firearms. This is, as shown elsewhere, the first step to forced confiscation. Then for sure the only people to have firearms will be the Government and the criminals.

I don't think that is what you want, but universal registration is the only way for your proposal to work. It is just like the California Armed prohibited persons System - the only way it can effectively work is with universal registration of every firearm.

- - - Updated - - -



I seriously disagree with almost everything Sandpebble says, and really hate his ad hominem attacks, but the situation he described in his thread (that i remember) was a legal FTF, and not a straw purchase. The thread I refer to was the one where he described taking an antigun friend to a gun show, and buying a gun from someone outside the venue. he regretted doing this, as he said it showed how easy it was to purchase weapons without a background check.

If I missed his admission to a straw purchase in another thread, please point it out to me.

Thank you.

you missed it or read it wrong. he flatly stated that he intentially purchased a rifle from the cmp for another person. he did add that his deal with the other individual fell through, as if somehow that makes his actions somehow less illegal. i dont remember the gun show one, so obviously he has done it multiple times, and probably shouldnt be welcome on a gun forum for any reason.

[steelap]

you missed it or read it wrong. he flatly stated that he intentially purchased a rifle from the cmp for another person. he did add that his deal with the other individual fell through, as if somehow that makes his actions somehow less illegal. i dont remember the gun show one, so obviously he has done it multiple times, and probably shouldnt be welcome on a gun forum for any reason.

If he purchased a rifle from the CMP for another person, and it was not a bonafide gift - that was a straw purchase. I stand corrected.

P.S. Every time I fill out a 4473 for a firearm that is a bonafide gift, it irks me that the legal exception is not incorporated into the first question. It is explained in the Instructions, though.

[togor]

maybe like enforcing our immigration laws. your liberal mindset is really messed up. blame the guns for crime, blame the meatpacking plants for crime, how about blaming the criminals!

When was the last time immigrants weren't packing the vast majority of meat in this country? It started with the stockyards and hasn't ended since. Illegals, or refugees. Trump wants to put the kibosh on both. Our beef is raised and processed locally, but as costs go up for the big packers, we can expect the same.

Leftyo, if you'd stop to think about it for just half a second, you'd realize that guns are just as important in their own way to criminals as they are to collectors, hunters, sports shooters, anti-government militia types. This business of saying that guns are irrelevant to crime is hogwash. That's not a liberal mindset, that's just clear-eyed thinking. A criminal without a gun is at a disadvantage. So...make it harder for criminals to get guns.

[leftyo]

When was the last time immigrants weren't packing the vast majority of meat in this country? It started with the stockyards and hasn't ended since. Illegals, or refugees. Trump wants to put the kibosh on both. Our beef is raised and processed locally, but as costs go up for the big packers, we can expect the same.

Leftyo, if you'd stop to think about it for just half a second, you'd realize that guns are just as important in their own way to criminals as they are to collectors, hunters, sports shooters, anti-government militia types. This business of saying that guns are irrelevant to crime is hogwash. That's not a liberal mindset, that's just clear-eyed thinking. A criminal without a gun is at a disadvantage. So...make it harder for criminals to get guns.

on the immigrants, since when does the fact that they have been doing it for some time make it legal?
as for the criminals, you bet guns are important to them, but what you dont get is criminals DONT OBEY THE LAW, meaning they will steal them, buy them form other criminals who stole them. the average criminal isnt walking into a store and paying asking price for a gun. they buy them stolen on the streets for a few bucks(much less than what we would pay for a legally obtained firearm). so again i never said guns are irrelevant to crime (quit making things up). the liberal mindset is believing that more unenforced laws are somehow going to prevent criminals from obtaining guns, just wont happen! how anyone can believe a criminal is going to walk into a store and buy one for full retail, or even face to face at normal market value , when they can either steal one themselves or buy one that was already stolen for little to nothing is beyond me. you have to quit thinking criminals think and act like you or i do, because they dont operate the same way.

[togor]

Of course criminals don't obey the law. That's the point of reducing their firepower, right? How come criminal firepower is so often cited as a reason for citizens to arm up, but when the topic is reducing that criminal firepower, suddenly it turns to "not that big a deal" or "oh well, what can you do?"

[leftyo]

Of course criminals don't obey the law. That's the point of reducing their firepower, right? How come criminal firepower is so often cited as a reason for citizens to arm up, but when the topic is reducing that criminal firepower, suddenly it turns to "not that big a deal" or "oh well, what can you do?"

when you come up with a way of disarming them, im all ears. so far all you have is more laws and regulations which criminals dont abide by in the first place. then you dont seem to want them locked up, dont seem to want to keep the ones who are actually locked up there...... im still waiting for this common sense of yours to show up! my way is to lock em up, or eliminate them, you just want to pass more laws that they wont follow, so who is it that makes it "not a big deal"?