New York's New Abortion Law

[togor]

I like to quote the words of the late Professor Elizabeth Fox-Genovese:
"By declaring reproductive to be women's exclusive right, it dismisses the claims of men and cancels their obligations to the next generation."

You get a little credit for at least acknowledging the possibility that women have rights, even if it's by a misleading ivory tower quote. Another guy here can't even acknowledge the bearer of the womb as a human being with any rights at all. A so-called believer in liberty, but only on the easy choices, doesn't really believe in liberty at all.

[free1954]

if we are going to have legal murder [abortion], why waste it on the innocent? lets make it retroactive, so that any mother could abort [murder] their child no matter how old they are. it could be useful.

[togor]

reductio ad absurdum

[S.A. Boggs]

if we are going to have legal murder [abortion], why waste it on the innocent? lets make it retroactive, so that any mother could abort [murder] their child no matter how old they are. it could be useful.

Do you realize that you have just scared Togor?
Sam

[Vern Humphrey]

Do you realize that you have just scared Togor?
Sam

I don't think he understands that he has been scared. Reductio ad absurdum is a technique in logic for disproving a fallacious argument. By recognizing it, he shows that his own argument has been refuted -- and doesn't understand it.

[dryheat]

if we are going to have legal murder [abortion], why waste it on the innocent? lets make it retroactive, so that any mother could abort [murder] their child no matter how old they are. it could be useful.

Ridiculoso infinati

[Vern Humphrey]

Ridiculoso infinati

But he has a point. If ONE class of humans can be killed on a whim, why not other classes? There have in fact been proposals of an "approval period" during which the mother can have the already-born child killed if she desires.

[dobek]

Another unintended consequence of this law - woman WANTS her baby - is hit by a drunk driver and the unborn baby is killed --- no homicide --- it isn't a person until after birth..... where is the woman's rights in that instance?

Steve

[dryheat]

There will be lawyers. Good point dobek.
Vern, I have never had a kid but I have had .01% of time in hospitals. Life and Death, it gets decided there on a huge scale. I have no doubt that on a daily basis there are battlefield decisions made that execute the young born and the old. So, at ten years of life the kid shows up to be bi-polar and violent? Who needs that?

[S.A. Boggs]

There will be lawyers. Good point dobek.
Vern, I have never had a kid but I have had .01% of time in hospitals. Life and Death, it gets decided there on a huge scale. I have no doubt that on a daily basis there are battlefield decisions made that execute the young born and the old. So, at ten years of life the kid shows up to be bi-polar and violent? Who needs that?

Then the question is who decides under what parameters? Bi-Polar has nothing to do with violent tendencies as one is independent of the other. Females are often diagnosed as Bi-Polar and argumentative in the lower line level, what then? When I was doing my medical in another lifetime we did a course on triage, do we do this to the population in general as well for life and death. If so, I an many others would not be here now to breath the air. I have two grown children and 3 grand children who bring me great joy. In my coming senior years, I see much more love coming my way.
Sam

[free1954]

Do you realize that you have just scared Togor?
Sam

maybe he's afraid his mother will read it and think it's a good idea.
you kids can post all the fancy pig latin phrases you like but I stand by my original statement. if it's legal for a mother to kill their child when they are innocent, why not make it legal for a mother to do it when they are a drain on society.
an anti abortionist once told me, "we still have the death penalty in this state. it's reserved for the unborn."

[togor]

I don't think he understands that he has been scared. Reductio ad absurdum is a technique in logic for disproving a fallacious argument. By recognizing it, he shows that his own argument has been refuted -- and doesn't understand it.

You still don't see the owner of the womb as having any rights at all, so your ability to participate in serious discussion is severely limited. But to argue that a mother with a 18 year old son represents the same situation as a raped girl 3 days into a pregnancy is of course absurd. You're looking through the telescope backwards, because the argument that falls apart is your own. I acknowledge the complexity of the issue whereas you cannot. Again, the whole point of liberty is so that it can be used for the tough calls. If all the tough calls are made by the state (your plan), that is not liberty at all. Your whole life is invested in hierarchies, so maybe the concept of liberty means nothing to you. Others disagree.

[togor]

Also worth pointing out...religions do not universally agree on when the "soul" life begins, with some holding that it enters at first breath. If ever there was a good example of the First Amendment protecting the many from encroachments of a particular religion, this is it. Again, some restrictions on abortion by society are reasonable, but in the end deference should be given to the woman if we are to remain a society that values individuals as the ultimate repository of liberty. The same discussion applies at the other end of the journey, BTW. How many here are eager to be hooked up to a machine for their last days with the switch controlled by the lawyers?

[S.A. Boggs]

maybe he's afraid his mother will read it and think it's a good idea.
you kids can post all the fancy pig latin phrases you like but I stand by my original statement. if it's legal for a mother to kill their child when they are innocent, why not make it legal for a mother to do it when they are a drain on society.
an anti abortionist once told me, "we still have the death penalty in this state. it's reserved for the unborn."

The person was probably googling from their mom's basement again.
Sam

[Vern Humphrey]

There will be lawyers. Good point dobek.
Vern, I have never had a kid but I have had .01% of time in hospitals. Life and Death, it gets decided there on a huge scale. I have no doubt that on a daily basis there are battlefield decisions made that execute the young born and the old. So, at ten years of life the kid shows up to be bi-polar and violent? Who needs that?

So you would agree that a bi-polar 10-year old should be executed without trial? Is that the point of your argument?

The fact that there are problems doesn't automatically mean that cold-blooded mass murder of the innocent is an acceptable solution.