More liberal suppression of conservatives

[Roadkingtrax]

Lyman, you will get more honesty from a shoplifter then from Togor, Russian agents are trained to lie!
Sam

Now you believe in Russian influence? Jesus.

[Sandpebble]

Lyman,

As you said....buy.

Not sell. If a buyer is willing to cross state lines to a state where paperwork-free FTF transactions between strangers are legal, and finds a seller who will operate on a no-questions-asked basis, then a sale happens.

So spell it out for me....where do those gang banger guns in Chicago come from, and how do they get there? They're not all burglary items. Discriminating gangstas don't just want to pick through someone else's stuff.

The argument is that it is logistically impossible to clamp down on the gun trade, but we know that really isn't true. We just don't want to.

Think airline travel. These days you can go anywhere you want in the USA if you can afford the ticket, but if you want to get on the plane, you better have the right ID. For international travel, they take photographic biometrics now on every traveller at passport control. If someone gets on a "bad" list, then they're not flying. And fake IDs for airline travel are tough.

All of this is me just answering Vernon's question. And the answer isn't that nothing will work. The answer is we just don't want to. That's the meat of it and everything else is just BS.

Just popped into a local gun show today . Guys in the parking lot selling and buying no questions asked just as we've all done for eons .

That's the prob, not all of us gun owners are responsible gun owners..... and unless that changes... we will lose that right one day

[Roadkingtrax]

Contiguous state pistol sales are a big no-no. Rifle sales are OK with valid ID. I personally avoid local sales if I can help it, low ballers and non-collectors make selling a painful process. Just sell with online auctions anymore.

[togor]

Here is a 2013 article describing what is known about crime guns taken in Chicago. Loopholes are described.

https://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/30/u...tal-shots.html

[lyman]

Here is a 2013 article describing what is known about crime guns taken in Chicago. Loopholes are described.

https://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/30/u...tal-shots.html

paywall, not subscribing to read that article,


and yes I said buy, just like you mentioned UBC's

to have a background check implies a sale, and in fact you mentioned that in what I quoted,,(your post)

so,

you want to restrict everyone's right to buy and sell their personal property (gun, shovel, fork, etc) to save a few in Chicago? or other city with gang violence?

state by state, person by person registration?

go full UK and have police inspect your home for proper storage?


to what end?

and what do you propose to do to prevent the gang violence?

[togor]

Hi Lyman,

Yes, these are the sticking points. But you are fundamentally doing something different here, and more honest, than those who say that changing the rules won't make a difference. You are acknowledging that tightening up gun commerce could make a difference but will affect law abiding people everywhere. Not that different in principle than inconveniencing airline travelers everywhere in the attempt to keep terrorists off of flights. You're saying it isn't worth it to you, which is more honest than saying: nothing we do could possibly make a difference, so let's do nothing.

As I write this I have a Armalite A4 + MRO on the bench in front of me, getting cleaned after a recent range session. By any measure one of the "bad" guns on the banners' lists. So I have skin in the game here same as others. And yes I do try to understand the motivations of the other side.

PS.: A big source of Chicago guns are those purchased inside IL but outside the city limits. There is no IL state law requiring reporting the reporting of lost or stolen firearms to the police, and no doubt these poor souls are too traumatized by being burgled of their guns yet again to remember to make the report on their own.

[Vern Humphrey]

and what do you propose to do to prevent the gang violence?

Nothing! It's racist and politically incorrect to admit there is such a thing as gang violence.

Now I have proposed Violence Control. We need three things:

Targeting
Enforcement
Incapacitation

Targeting -- we direct the law against those who commit violent crimes with guns, and those who carry guns after conviction.

Enforcement -- we have a special office for prosecuting these crimes. Prosecutors in this office are ineligible to prosecute any other crime -- so they have to prosecute or they lose funding.

Incapacitation -- Ten years for the first offence, mandatory, consecutive with any other sentence. An additional mandatory consecutive ten years for each subsequent offense,

It works like this:

Little Johnny, 18 years old, sticks up a 7-11. He gets 5 years from the state (and probably serves two) and ten years for the gun.

He gets out at 30, and not being very smart, does it again. Again he gets 5 years from the state (and probably serves two) and twenty years for using a gun to commit the crime (second offense,) and ten years in addition for having the gun.

He's 62 when he gets out, If he does it again, he'll gets 5 years from the state (and probably serves two) and thirty years for using a gun to commit the crime (third offense,) and twenty years in addition for having the gun (second offense).

He'll be 114 when he gets out, and I'll bet a nickel he won't do it again.

[Allen]

If people had to pay the time for doing the crime a lot of them wouldn't. I'm talking about working while in prison too not just laying around in the a/c watching TV.

Criminals should get extra time for bad behavior---not time off for good behavior---that is already expected of them.

Colors don't matter.

[clintonhater]

PS.: A big source of Chicago guns are those purchased inside IL but outside the city limits.

How do purchasers evade background checks?

[S.A. Boggs]

Nothing! It's racist and politically incorrect to admit there is such a thing as gang violence.

Now I have proposed Violence Control. We need three things:

Targeting
Enforcement
Incapacitation

Targeting -- we direct the law against those who commit violent crimes with guns, and those who carry guns after conviction.

Enforcement -- we have a special office for prosecuting these crimes. Prosecutors in this office are ineligible to prosecute any other crime -- so they have to prosecute or they lose funding.

Incapacitation -- Ten years for the first offence, mandatory, consecutive with any other sentence. An additional mandatory consecutive ten years for each subsequent offense,

It works like this:

Little Johnny, 18 years old, sticks up a 7-11. He gets 5 years from the state (and probably serves two) and ten years for the gun.

He gets out at 30, and not being very smart, does it again. Again he gets 5 years from the state (and probably serves two) and twenty years for using a gun to commit the crime (second offense,) and ten years in addition for having the gun.

He's 62 when he gets out, If he does it again, he'll gets 5 years from the state (and probably serves two) and thirty years for using a gun to commit the crime (third offense,) and twenty years in addition for having the gun (second offense).

He'll be 114 when he gets out, and I'll bet a nickel he won't do it again.

Vern, one thing that is wrong with your logic is that it is "racist" and unfair! The real answer is to take laws off of the books, no laws no crime! Laws cause crime, if it is not unlawful it is not illegal. We can call murder "retroactive abortion", remember abortion is not illegal. We need to make laws against those who make laws that hamper society. Society needs to make laws that make no sense so by breaking them will make sense to those addicted and there fore clear headed.
Sam

[lyman]

Hi Lyman,

Yes, these are the sticking points. But you are fundamentally doing something different here, and more honest, than those who say that changing the rules won't make a difference. You are acknowledging that tightening up gun commerce could make a difference but will affect law abiding people everywhere. Not that different in principle than inconveniencing airline travelers everywhere in the attempt to keep terrorists off of flights. You're saying it isn't worth it to you, which is more honest than saying: nothing we do could possibly make a difference, so let's do nothing.

As I write this I have a Armalite A4 + MRO on the bench in front of me, getting cleaned after a recent range session. By any measure one of the "bad" guns on the banners' lists. So I have skin in the game here same as others. And yes I do try to understand the motivations of the other side.

PS.: A big source of Chicago guns are those purchased inside IL but outside the city limits. There is no IL state law requiring reporting the reporting of lost or stolen firearms to the police, and no doubt these poor souls are too traumatized by being burgled of their guns yet again to remember to make the report on their own.

step back and look at the big picture,


one of the things I learned from a very very smart man when I was in the grocery business was to ask why,

why do I need to have my rights restricted to stop gang violence in any city?
why are the police not stopping it when policing?
why are the politicians not doing something besides restricting my rights while allowing those that are violating our rights to continue to do so?
why are the people, not the cops or politicians, in the neighborhoods not doing something to stop it?
why did the parents of these gang bangers let them grow up the way they did?

follow up the excuses for any of the above questions with another why, and eventually you will get to the root cause,
that is what needs to be corrected, (and hint, gun control is not it)


fact of the matter is you can legislate our rights away to attempt to prevent those who break the laws from having access,

or you can fix the issues, punish those that break the law, and hopefully improve society,


need proof, look at RVA, ,

top 5 in murders per capita at one time,

not now, project Exile was a big part of that, as well as the community not putting up with it any longer

[togor]

How do purchasers evade background checks?

Added in postscript. Buyers go through the hoops to execute a legal sale from a dealer with proper FOID and 4473, etc. Then gun gets "lost" or "stolen" into gang life. Because there is no reporting requirement when the legal owner and gun part company, and no good mechanism for flagging such people, it's a wide open trade. Sure, they're lying on 11a), form 4473, but prove it!

[Vern Humphrey]

Vern, one thing that is wrong with your logic is that it is "racist" and unfair! The real answer is to take laws off of the books, no laws no crime! Laws cause crime, if it is not unlawful it is not illegal. We can call murder "retroactive abortion", remember abortion is not illegal. We need to make laws against those who make laws that hamper society. Society needs to make laws that make no sense so by breaking them will make sense to those addicted and there fore clear headed.
Sam

You got a point -- we can't solve our problems because the solutions are not Politically Correct.

[togor]

Hi Lyman,

First off I can agree with the general principle that if our freedoms are only contingent on nobody abusing them, then we won't have any at all. So yes, part of freedom is freedom to f*ck up and face the consequences. And I suppose the gang bangers can blow each other to bits for all we care, but they shoot a lot of Innocents along the way. When the damage starts being collateral, then sometimes the rest of us have something to say.

I like the point about root causes and symptoms. Some root cause leads the bangers to want guns and abuse them in heinous ways. But this can't be to say that the guns (and the ease with which the gang-bangers get them) is completely immaterial to the subject of life and death any more than the pills are with the opioid crisis in Appalachia.

To use a medical analogy, the underlying issue for the patient may be a weakened immune system from poor nutrition, age, chemo, etc. The immediate symptoms are high fever and a raging infection from a bacterium normally harmless to healthy people. Do we not treat the symptoms to buy time while we work on the root cause? Maybe we can't, because the medication has side effects. But usually we want to try.

Bringing it back to the OP, had the princess bothered to give one tenth as much thought to this as you and I have before she tweeted, then she probably keeps her crown.

[clintonhater]

Added in postscript. Buyers go through the hoops to execute a legal sale from a dealer with proper FOID and 4473, etc. Then gun gets "lost" or "stolen" into gang life. Because there is no reporting requirement when the legal owner and gun part company, and no good mechanism for flagging such people, it's a wide open trade. Sure, they're lying on 11a), form 4473, but prove it!

So when a gun is recovered at a crime scene, the owner "of record" will have SOME explaining to do. (Quite possibly at around 3AM, just after his door has been smashed in by ATF agents.) Profit margin must be astronomical to run this risk.