China has huge problems the MSM is hiding

[lyman]

To your question, Lyman, "why would they?" I'll temper my answer by saying that I don't know much about the ins-and-outs of ag contracts. Having said that, I'll say that pork exports require:

1. Piglets to raise,
2. Farmers to raise them,
3. Something to feed them (also grown by farmers).

If the export market is locked up, and pigs aren't being raised, that hits 2 and 3 also, not just 1. If the payments are to cover lost economic activity, it seems reasonable to consider the impacts across the entire supply chain, not just the ownership class. If an investor gets compensated by USDA for 10,000 hogs not raised, slaughtered and sold, then why not the guys in the growing operations too? This off the top of my head. Maybe I'm looking at it wrong.

Edited Postscript: if anything I would think that the pure money guys are the ones who should be last in line for handouts. If hogs are less lucrative, they can invest in poultry or kumquats or whatever. Money is fungible. On the other hand, a farmer with a setup for hogs is captive to the ups and downs of the hog market. His facilities are not nearly so fungible. See what I mean?

you are not a businessperson are you? as in actually run or operate a business?


if the 'growing operations guys' have a contract with any company (they do this with chickens too) to raise food,
they may or may not own the farm (it may be leased, or company owned), or the guys my just may be hired to run the operation

they are compensated at the rate they contracted to raise the animals, that they do not own,

it X many die, then the contract covers what the operator , manager, or contracted grower is allowed ,and responsible for as shrink or loss,


if the company owns the livestock, then the company would be compensated, not the guy contracted to run the operation

he (or she) may be a bonus , depending on contract, for results,,

there is no ownership class, there are farms, folks who own them, companies who own them, etc,

hogs are very lucrative btw,, lots of profit in pork usually, but the market, just like every other food market, is subject to supply, demand, growing seasons, and the whim of the public (bbq popular, or not popular)

[togor]

It depends on volumes, prices, and whether the growers have exposure to market prices even on hogs they don't own. If their growing fee is fixed regardless of market price then that's one thing. If weak pork prices drive down growing fees (and or volume) then that's something else. True I'm not in the hog business but I do understand numbers and ways they can connect things pretty well. Ultimately the devil is in the details of the contracts and it seems to me this is another case of not liking the message or messenger. Your question was...do Chinese owned firms get bailout payments and the likely answer is "yes".

[togor]

According to this web site, any payments to pork producers for China tariffs is just bailing out noise in pork prices.

https://www.indexmundi.com/commodities/?commodity=pork&months=120

What's the old joke? If you want to starve a farmer, nail his mailbox shut.

[lyman]

It depends on volumes, prices, and whether the growers have exposure to market prices even on hogs they don't own. If their growing fee is fixed regardless of market price then that's one thing. If weak pork prices drive down growing fees (and or volume) then that's something else. True I'm not in the hog business but I do understand numbers and ways they can connect things pretty well. Ultimately the devil is in the details of the contracts and it seems to me this is another case of not liking the message or messenger. Your question was...do Chinese owned firms get bailout payments and the likely answer is "yes".

you are missing it

grower is just that, someone paid to run the operation, as in grow the hogs,

doubt they are paid on market price,, since they are just running the operation, (market price likely does not matter,, a hog is a hog, when you are raising someone else's

Smithfield got the payout,, Smithfield owned the hogs, the grower, or producer, if just a contracted employee, likely got nothing, other than a normal payout (paycheck)

and yes, China, since they own Smithfield, got some of that money,, you would need to look at the P&L statements to see how much really went to profits,, (by looking at disposal cost and recovery cost of the dead animals,,,)

[togor]

you are missing it

grower is just that, someone paid to run the operation, as in grow the hogs,

doubt they are paid on market price,, since they are just running the operation, (market price likely does not matter,, a hog is a hog, when you are raising someone else's

Smithfield got the payout,, Smithfield owned the hogs, the grower, or producer, if just a contracted employee, likely got nothing, other than a normal payout (paycheck)

and yes, China, since they own Smithfield, got some of that money,, you would need to look at the P&L statements to see how much really went to profits,, (by looking at disposal cost and recovery cost of the dead animals,,,)

Not missing it at all. At least not in chicken farming. Is contract hog farming going to be set up radically differently? The arrangement is described in the article as "Under the contract system, farmers provide the barns and labor to raise the chickens and the company provides chicks, feed and expertise to raise birds to slaughter weight."

https://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/chicken-farmers-say-processors-treat-them-like-servants

The big boys set standards, prices, incentives, etc. for their growers. The grower is gets dialed into a particular corporation for the long term. My wife comes from farm people, her cousins back in Iowa still farm (successfully). No question there are winners and losers in farming, and people with less productive setups eke out marginal returns. (NE Iowa, where the cousins are, is phenomenally productive farm country.) My own view is that if the USDA is writing checks to cover pork tariff loses (hard to justify given the price chart I posted), then I see no reason why money can't flow to the farmers if they are feeling the pain. You express doubt that they feel it, but haven't provided a source. This feels like a quibble, that you want to find something wrong with my reasoning, just 'cuz.

[lyman]

Not missing it at all. At least not in chicken farming. Is contract hog farming going to be set up radically differently? The arrangement is described in the article as "Under the contract system, farmers provide the barns and labor to raise the chickens and the company provides chicks, feed and expertise to raise birds to slaughter weight."

https://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/chicken-farmers-say-processors-treat-them-like-servants

The big boys set standards, prices, incentives, etc. for their growers. The grower is gets dialed into a particular corporation for the long term. My wife comes from farm people, her cousins back in Iowa still farm (successfully). No question there are winners and losers in farming, and people with less productive setups eke out marginal returns. (NE Iowa, where the cousins are, is phenomenally productive farm country.) My own view is that if the USDA is writing checks to cover pork tariff loses (hard to justify given the price chart I posted), then I see no reason why money can't flow to the farmers if they are feeling the pain. You express doubt that they feel it, but haven't provided a source. This feels like a quibble, that you want to find something wrong with my reasoning, just 'cuz.

arrogance,


I have farmer relatives as well, and a business (as in management and ownership) background as well,

if you are an employee, hired to raise an animal for food, you contract is with the owner, either of the farm you are managing, or the farm you own and contract to raise the birds or hogs or ??

usda is fickle, like the wind,
it blesses some with checks, others with nothing, and has for generations,,

arrogance in you perceive a threat to your reasoning, without realizing that your reasoning is not the only path in the world,,

and you want to talk to death those that do not recognize your supposed superior intellect or reasoning,,

funny, one post you know nothing of farming,, or business, then suddenly you do know everything,, and want to quibble, because of your reasoning,,


what happened to a discussion???

[togor]

Getting personal for you.

Correct me if I'm wrong. Your position is that you see no reason for contract growers to be in line for bailout payments. Mine is that there could be reason, depending on whether or not the growers are hurt by the Chinese tariffs. I didn't say they must be paid, I said there could be a reason.

Neither of us claims to be an expert in contract pork production.

Why is this a big deal? It seems to me like we could just disagree here, but you seem to want something more?

Like quibbling over my use of the "edit" function, reading something nefarious into the act of cleaning upobile phone autocorrect errors.

[lyman]

Getting personal for you.

Correct me if I'm wrong. Your position is that you see no reason for contract growers to be in line for bailout payments. Mine is that there could be reason, depending on whether or not the growers are hurt by the Chinese tariffs. I didn't say they must be paid, I said there could be a reason.

Neither of us claims to be an expert in contract pork production.

Why is this a big deal? It seems to me like we could just disagree here, but you seem to want something more?

Like quibbling over my use of the "edit" function, reading something nefarious into the act of cleaning upobile phone autocorrect errors.

no, not personal, this is the internet,


you seem to have an issue or inability to see how employment and contracts work,


you also have a way of beating the dead horse in an attempt to be right,,

tarriffs have nothing to do with the original topic,, payouts for dead hogs,, and did China get some,


I did not quibble over your edits,, just made a comment that you edit a lot, (now who is taking things personal??)

[Allen]

Put him on your ignore list along with his other user names and all the meaningless discussions that add nothing to this forum go away.

Works for the rest of us.

[lyman]

Put him on your ignore list along with his other user names and all the meaningless discussions that add nothing to this forum go away.

Works for the rest of us.

when I told Pat I would make an attempt at moderating this place, that to me at least, means I need to read all posts,,

never been a fan of ignore anyway

[Allen]

when I told Pat I would make an attempt at moderating this place, that to me at least, means I need to read all posts,,

never been a fan of ignore anyway

I know. I was rubbing a sore. You have been critical of this feature in the past and to those who support it. I just wanted to reemphasize the need in it and why so many of us use it.

Without it the forum may have been completely gone long ago, which, as you know is the goal for some here. I only wish that when someone is placed on the ignore list they are also blocked from reading and responding to threads started by others. Plus, when a person reaches a certain amount of ignores isn't it time for other actions?

I know you don't make the rules but w/o Gloria's romper room disciplinary actions a very few here abuse and sabotage what the Major and now Pat are providing for us.

[togor]

no, not personal, this is the internet,


you seem to have an issue or inability to see how employment and contracts work,


you also have a way of beating the dead horse in an attempt to be right,,

tarriffs have nothing to do with the original topic,, payouts for dead hogs,, and did China get some,


I did not quibble over your edits,, just made a comment that you edit a lot, (now who is taking things personal??)

Well as far as the OP goes, I think we can agree that the MSM was not ignoring the issue with Swine flu in Asia. Everything beyond that....shrug. As for what I do or don't understand about contracts....also shrug. If you want to have a conversation about who gets in line and where when the USDA man comes to town with bags of money, we can do that. Or not. Totally up to you. But if interested, do you see any possibility that the general criticism of government bailouts could apply in this case? That the government ends up giving too much money to the wrong people? And if so, who are the right people, and who are the wrong people? But again, content to drop this now if that is your preference.

[lyman]

I know. I was rubbing a sore. You have been critical of this feature in the past and to those who support it. I just wanted to reemphasize the need in it and why so many of us use it.

Without it the forum may have been completely gone long ago, which, as you know is the goal for some here. I only wish that when someone is placed on the ignore list they are also blocked from reading and responding to threads started by others. Plus, when a person reaches a certain amount of ignores isn't it time for other actions?

I know you don't make the rules but w/o Gloria's romper room disciplinary actions a very few here abuse and sabotage what the Major and now Pat are providing for us.

I get why folks put other on ignore,, thing is I don't work that way (part of my work history I guess)

anyway, I have always felt that if one takes the time to make a point, and stick to it, that point will eventually get across to those that do not agree,

and if it doesn't , that does not make me, you, or anyone wrong,, it just means we have different thoughts or beliefs on that subject, (kinda the way it should be, correct?)


there are those that attempt to use some form of circular logic, or post stuff and twist it up a bit to either prove something , or get something over on the original post, or dismiss the idea or poster altogether,,,

as RED says,, twist and turn,

thing is, both sides should be able to listen, (or read) and agree, disagree, or just ignore, in a civil and thought productive manner,,


in a perfect world, and if any of us are mature enough,,,

[Allen]

I get why folks put other on ignore,, thing is I don't work that way (part of my work history I guess)

anyway, I have always felt that if one takes the time to make a point, and stick to it, that point will eventually get across to those that do not agree,

and if it doesn't , that does not make me, you, or anyone wrong,, it just means we have different thoughts or beliefs on that subject, (kinda the way it should be, correct?)


there are those that attempt to use some form of circular logic, or post stuff and twist it up a bit to either prove something , or get something over on the original post, or dismiss the idea or poster altogether,,,

as RED says,, twist and turn,

thing is, both sides should be able to listen, (or read) and agree, disagree, or just ignore, in a civil and thought productive manner,,


in a perfect world, and if any of us are mature enough,,,

So you would welcome beto O'Rourke to this forum to discuss how outrageous it is to own a gun?

Not the place for it.

There are internet sites for liberals and sites for conservatives. Most of us here like to have "mature" conversations about guns, politics and other points of issue without constant deliberant interuptions of reverse meaningless opinions.

Some, edge it on and I'll remind you that the Major is the one who provided the ignore list. I guess he wasn't "mature" enough to argue meaningless points?

Some want to see the forum continue and grow back toward what it once was. Some want it to end.

All of this fuss over ONE liberal invader.

[lyman]

So you would welcome beto O'Rourke to this forum to discuss how outrageous it is to own a gun?

Not the place for it.

There are internet sites for liberals and sites for conservatives. Most of us here like to have "mature" conversations about guns, politics and other points of issue without constant deliberant interuptions of reverse meaningless opinions.

Some, edge it on and I'll remind you that the Major is the one who provided the ignore list. I guess he wasn't "mature" enough to argue meaningless points?

Some want to see the forum continue and grow back toward what it once was. Some want it to end.

All of this fuss over ONE liberal invader.

the ignore function is on every version of forums, if you belong to any other you will see it , esp if it is a Vbulletin type forum, gunboards, milsurp, etc all have that capability, heck, even ebay and gunbroker have it too,,,

there are ways to handle the folks that want to 'invade'

and not saying you cannot use ignore, free world Allen, use it all you want,

count me in the want the forum to continue area,,


re beto,,

how do we know he is not already here? or lurking? or his staff?

if he wants to post, so be it, free country, but betting he will not get the replies he wants, (and remember the rules, civil,,,)

- - - Updated - - -

So you would welcome beto O'Rourke to this forum to discuss how outrageous it is to own a gun?

Not the place for it.

re reading this, and respectfully submit you are wrong,

what better place for him to come and debate or state his views??

surely you and the other members can show him the error of his ways in a respectful manner?