That's how you control a border

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  • Art
    Senior Member, Deceased
    • Dec 2009
    • 9256

    #31
    Originally posted by Vern Humphrey
    They had always done that -- Roman cavalry was always from non-Italian peoples. They did, as barbarian populations in Italy, begin to enlist them into the legions. The German commander at the battle of Teutoberg Wald, during the reign of the first Emperor, Augustus, was a man who had served as an officer in the Roman army and returned home to fight against the Romans. He destroyed a force of three reinforced legions under Publius Quinctilius Varus.

    That was more than 450 years before the fall of Rome.
    Correct.

    Interestingly none of Varus legions were commanded by a Legate or Military Tribune but rather by their Camp Prefects which would normally be third in command.

    From the time of the Marian reforms of the latter Republic only the Legionary heavy infantry were Roman citizens. The light infantry, cavalry and all specialty troops such as archers and slingers, as well as all rowers and marines in the navy were recruited from free non citizen inhabitants of the Empire. These Auxiliaries were paid less than the legionaries and served a longer "hitch." Their big reward was Roman Citizenship upon discharge. There were a few emergencies in which the Roman government actually freed and armed slaves. In addition the Romans would regularly contract with rulers outside the Roman Empire for manpower in special situations. Professional armies are expensive and therefore usually smaller. The Imperial military had to defend the entire massive empire with an army that probably, all in, never exceeded 350,000 troops of all types total (excluding the navy) at its peak. Look at a map of the Roman Empire and you'll see that isn't a lot of guys for the job.

    The legionaries were supposed to be all volunteers. The pay was good (extremely good for Centurions and above) and the retirement excellent but the hardships were considerable and the mortality pretty high so a good many legionaries were draftees. Emergencies sometimes necessitated drastic measures. The Legions in Judea were badly mauled in the Bar Kochba revolt and the Roman general on the on the ground, who had the permission of Hadrian to do whatever he thought necessary, took the drastic expedient of granting citizenship to marines on the spot and drafting them into the legions to replace the losses.

    The Varus Disaster as the Romans called it wasn't the only serious problem instigated by a Roman too close to his non Roman ethnic roots. A Roman officer named Civilis, of Gallic ancestry was responsible for a very serious insurrection in AD 69 that, for a while, looked like it would evict the Romans from Gaul.

    The reasons for the fall of the Roman Empire are complex and numerous and include (among other things) an increasing dependence on a slave economy, especially in Italy, which accelerated the impoverishment of the vast majority of the free population resulting in a ruinously expensive welfare system in the precincts of Rome and other major Italian cities. A declining population. Extensive corruption in the political system beginning with Marius and Sulla in the later Republic. An inevitable civil war at the end of each dynasty which probably did as much damage to the armies of Rome as any foreign enemy. The debasement of currency which began seriously during the time of Nero. Powerful external enemies, especially the Iranian-Parthian/Sanissid Empires to the east with which the Roman empire was perpetually at war. All of these things took a toll, as did the fact that the empire was just too big go govern efficiently even without all the fore mentioned issues.
    Last edited by Art; 08-08-2021, 08:18.

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    • Art
      Senior Member, Deceased
      • Dec 2009
      • 9256

      #32
      An interesting article on the debasement of the currency of the Roman Empire and a cautionary tale for today:

      https://visualcapitalist.com/currenc...-roman-empire/

      Specie currency can be debased, and has been since antiquity. When Nero first debased the Denarius the act was kept a state secret for fear of the consequences should the news get out. It would later turn out Nero was a piker.
      Last edited by Art; 08-08-2021, 09:34.

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      • Vern Humphrey
        Administrator - OFC
        • Aug 2009
        • 15875

        #33
        Originally posted by Art
        An interesting article on the debasement of the currency of the Roman Empire and a cautionary tale for today:

        https://visualcapitalist.com/currenc...-roman-empire/

        Specie currency can be debased, and has been since antiquity. When Nero first debased the Denarius the act was kept a state secret for fear of the consequences should the news get out. It would later turn out Nero was a piker.
        Julius Caesar debased the currency a hundred years before Nero. Caesar had the mint (located in the Cella of the Temple of Juno Moneta) prepare two batches of silver -- one relatively pure, the other mixed with base metal. Every 10th coin was struck from the second batch.

        And of course Lyndon Johnson debased the silver American currency,

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        • Art
          Senior Member, Deceased
          • Dec 2009
          • 9256

          #34
          Originally posted by Vern Humphrey
          Julius Caesar debased the currency a hundred years before Nero. Caesar had the mint (located in the Cella of the Temple of Juno Moneta) prepare two batches of silver -- one relatively pure, the other mixed with base metal. Every 10th coin was struck from the second batch.

          And of course Lyndon Johnson debased the silver American currency,
          Yes, but after Nero the practice of debasing the currency was never reversed. LBJ didn't just debase silver currency, he eliminated it. The debasement of the silver Peso in Mexico is quite similar to the Roman problem, that is before they stopped issuing silver currency all together.
          Last edited by Art; 08-09-2021, 06:44.

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          • Vern Humphrey
            Administrator - OFC
            • Aug 2009
            • 15875

            #35
            Originally posted by Art

            The reasons for the fall of the Roman Empire are complex and numerous and include (among other things) an increasing dependence on a slave economy, especially in Italy, which accelerated the impoverishment of the vast majority of the free population resulting in a ruinously expensive welfare system in the precincts of Rome and other major Italian cities.
            Can you think of another country -- in modern times -- that has the same problem with welfare?
            Originally posted by Art
            A declining population. Extensive corruption in the political system beginning with Marius and Sulla in the later Republic. An inevitable civil war at the end of each dynasty which probably did as much damage to the armies of Rome as any foreign enemy. The debasement of currency which began seriously during the time of Nero. Powerful external enemies, especially the Iranian-Parthian/Sanissid Empires to the east with which the Roman empire was perpetually at war. All of these things took a toll, as did the fact that the empire was just too big go govern efficiently even without all the fore mentioned issues.
            Boy that all sounds familiar!!

            Comment

            • barretcreek
              Senior Member
              • Sep 2013
              • 6065

              #36
              Can you think of another country -- in modern times -- that has the same problem with welfare?

              Besides U.K.? Gimme a while.

              Comment

              • Vern Humphrey
                Administrator - OFC
                • Aug 2009
                • 15875

                #37
                Originally posted by barretcreek
                Can you think of another country -- in modern times -- that has the same problem with welfare?

                Besides U.K.? Gimme a while.
                I'll give you a hint -- look for countries that are circling the bowl.

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