WWI Sniper Scope Cases

[JWM]

I do have WRA documents that detail a 8 loop one somewhere in one of the piles, but I think I honestly found them in the commercial files after WWI. If I remember the document right it just sort of sounded like they were a commerical sales item.

The Marines and Army both ordered the same cases on three seperate contracts during the War. Which those were a little over 2,000 cases. But when you read the descriptions of those contracts, they all just say the 6 loop.

It could have been a private purchase item maybe.

What is the answer to the defining characteristics of the 6 loop case that Cpl Norton has brought forward, and what are the defining characteristics of the 8 loop case that Jim has mentioned? Is it possible that the 6 loop and the 8 loop cases being discussed are one and the same, in that the number six is derived from the number of loops on the case body, with the two on the case lid not being counted?

Interesting discussion and strong arguments on both sides. That said, Brophy's body of work and personal experience as a U.S. Army Rifle team shooter during the era of when these scopes and cases were still in use by the Army and Marines will be extraordinarily difficult to discredit.

Thanks...it was an enjoyable and most informative read!

James

[cplnorton]

I don't think there honestly is a answer quite yet.

Like for example, I have a hard time saying anything is definite unless I can validate it with 3 different ways. For example: 1) A actual document detailing it and confirming it's possible. 2) Period pictures of the item actually in use that I can date. 3) Items that still exist today that you can study. So when you only have one, or two of these possibilities it's really hard to say anything definite in my opinion.

I don't think the WRA contracts are confusing a 6 and 8 loop, but I will never say I'm not wrong. It's detailed in there a couple times and seems to be specific in both the Army and Marine Contracts.

Like for example this is one sentence on one of the contracts, "Each case to be fitted with six leather loops, of such a dimension to permit the attachment of a web strap. Which the web strap was 16 1/4''.

I saw a document that detailed 8 loops in the WRA docs, but I swear it was in 1919 or after and sounded more like a commercial sales item. But I didn't put much value in the document and don't remember where I filed it.

But you know these date timeframes you see on these 8 cases are getting pretty late as well. A lot of these Marines served well past the war and I know by the WRA documents that the shipments of scopes to the Marines did not stop when the war ended. They are still detailing them as active and completed contracts well into the beginning of 1919. So maybe that plays into all of this somehow.

What did Brophy say on the six and 8 loop argument? It's been a long time since I picked up his book and I let a buddy borrow it so I can't double check it.

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

Forgotten Weapons made a video on three M1903 "snipers" in the upcoming James D. Julia auctions. Who wants to see it himself, visit https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dWICTS0g-E

What was interesting to me (aside the funny screw heads on all scope bases) was the leather scope can one rifle comes with. I captured a few screenshots, which fit into the discussion here - see attachment.

If I'm reading the serial of #645.991 correctly (please correct if someone has a different suggestion), it's not SRS listed, but right within a block of USMC rifles, and right next to a handful of SRS listed snipers in the 646.xxx serial range.

I am familiar with two of these rifles. Yet another 8-loop case. I knew about the case, but I had never seen a picture of it. Thank you, Promo.

I see the YouTube moderator has never seen a Steve Earle reproduction M-N base. They are slightly different from the originals. They aren't the only problem.

jt

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

Maybe

....Brophy's body of work and personal experience as a U.S. Army Rifle team shooter during the era of when these scopes and cases were still in use by the Army and Marines will be extraordinarily difficult to discredit. James

You are right, but Brophy came long after the WWI snipers were gone, and he was in the Army. I have wondered what information he did have. Still, with one possible exception that was issued very late in the sniper program, every scope case, of which I am aware that has surfaced, has been an 8-loop and all have been the same. Some may believe them to be faked, but the logistics of such a widespread fakery by one person is beyond the pale, as he would have no way of knowing the names of so many snipers. Ancestry.com just wasn't around back in those days.

In the end, I suspect we will discover all the initial issued scope cases were indeed 8-loop. I believe WRA had 8-loop scope cases on hand and that is what they shipped. Who, but us, would notice the difference?

jt

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

....But you know these date timeframes you see on these 8 cases are getting pretty late as well....

I don't remember seeing a date on any of them. When the 1st class graduated, there was only 86-days left to war's end.

jt

[Promo]

I believe James thought is very interesting, if not considerable. If we break down a "scope can", what do we get (or what do we name the parts)? The "case" and the "cover" (or case lid). And if the documents speak of 6 loops on the cases, they probably aren't wrong, since the case itself does have 6 loops - the two additional loops are on the cover/case lid. Looking at the cases, if it had two loops the sling might not had fitted that well, or it could be caught in the field. So it definately is a good amount of loops as one would need in the field. And not often enough we can encounter the same problem of different methods of counting still today.

And as a small side note, this solution would be a win for anyone participating here - it would confirm the documents, and we have still existing cans which fit into this pattern. And the mentioned picture might just show a case where two of the loops had been cut off, because of personal preference.

[cplnorton]

I don't remember seeing a date on any of them. When the 1st class graduated, there was only 86-days left to war's end.

jt

Yeah there are no dates, but I'm just going by dates the Marines could have got them.

Looking at the documents from France I can place cases there a lot earlier than these named 8 cases. They seem to be over there pretty early in the war, and that matches the WRA documents say as well for the first order shipment. But when you research all the named 8 loop cases so far. They all seemed to have served stateside until after the war was basically over. And they didn't seem they could have got these cases till very late in the war or even after the war was over.

Like for instance I haven't seen a named 8 loop case where he served in France during the height of the war. Or early in the War. But I know there were cases over there pretty early as I see mention of them.

I could see a argument that WRA described them wrong if six loop cases didn't exist. But from earlier posters, I guess there are several pics in the Brophy book of some, one named to a A.A. Groupe.

Which there is a Marine match to a A.A. Groupe. His name was Adolph A. Groupe. And seeing where he was in the rosters, it looks like he might have had a chance to pick up one earlier than the others.

To me though, just seeing the documents, and timeframes and such. If there is a possibility these 8 loop cases were a Marine contract and sent from WRA. I personally think it would fall more likely into the 2nd shipment of cases to the Marines, as the dates those were shipped would seem to match up a lot more to the timeframes of the Marines with the 8 loop cases.

I will never say I'm not wrong. But it would be really nice to see a picture of one in use, that you can date. And a picture of one in France would really be helpful as they would seem to have been the earliest style.

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

Yeah there are no dates, but I'm just going by dates the Marines could have got them.

They were first issued in the spring of 1918 (I know the exact date).

Looking at the documents from France I can place cases there a lot earlier than these named 8 cases. They seem to be over there pretty early. But when you research all the named 8 loop cases so far. They all seemed to have served stateside until after the war was over. And they didn't seem they could have got these cases till very late in the war or even after the war was over.

To my knowledge, the scope cases went to France with the 11th and 13th Regiments. I can place one in France with the 6th Regiment, but no idea when he received it. That sniper was immediately separated from service upon his return to the states (as indeed, all of them were). The known snipers with the 5th and 6th Regiments, who describe what they were issued, do not mention a scope case, although I know at least one of them who had one (8-loop).

I haven't seen a named 8 loop case where he served in France during the war. At least none I have seen so far. So you have to wonder what the ones were in France that seem to be earlier than these 8 loop cases.

I have seen several. If you are referring to combat, I have seen, and held, one. All are 8-loop.

I could see a argument that WRA described them wrong if six loop cases didn't exist. But from earlier posters, I guess there are several pics in the Brophy book of some, one named to a A.A. Groupe.

Which there is a Marine match to a A.A. Groupe. His name was Adolph A. Groupe. And seeing where he was in the rosters, it looks like he might have had a chance to pick up one a lot earlier than the others.

A. A. Groupe's case has always been the odd man out. If the single picture we have of it is correct, it is quite different from all the other known cases, and he received it very late in the sniper program - not early. Groupe was in one of the last known classes. I would like to see more pictures of that case, which was the purpose of the original post in this thread, as previously stated. I do not know who now owns it, unfortunately.

It would be really nice to see a picture of one in use, that you can date. That would clear up a lot.

Just look at Gunner Estock's picture I sent to Tom Jackson, taken in early 1918 (I know the month and who took the picture and where). His scope case is draped over his right shoulder.

jt

[cplnorton]

Jim what are the names of the Marines with the 8 loop cases that you say were in France during the war?

All I have seen they never left for France till the war was basically over, including all the names in this post.

As for shipping in early 1918. The WRA rifles were, but those shipments were staggered by WRA. So they didn't ship on one date, it looks like several. But it appears some of the WRA cases shipped much earlier than the WRA rifles in the WRA docs. The Niedner rifles predated the WRA rifles by at least 6 months, and the cases for those rifles were ordered on July 2nd 1917,with a suspected Delivery Date of 5 weeks. I can place Telescopic rifles and cases in France before the 1st shipment of WRA rifles could have even got there.

[cplnorton]

Just look at Gunner Estock's picture I sent to Tom Jackson, taken in early 1918 (I know the month and who took the picture and where). His scope case is draped over his right shoulder.

jt

Jim, are you talking about the picture that is labeled "last practice before overseas trip Quantico?" If you are, all you see is a strap. There is no case visible. Honestly to me that looks like a leather strap and not a web strap. So it might be something else entirely. But I honeslty don't see any part of a case visible. I would imagine also that picture if labeled "last practice: before overseas Trip, it would have been taken right before he went oveseas.

Looking at the rosters Gunner Estock was a Sniper instructor in the US till September 19th 1918. On September 20th he was transferred to the 11th Regiment. And I think the 11th left for France on two dates, one late Sept, one early Oct. So if this was the last practice, I would imagine the picture was taken in Sept 1918 at Quantico.

[cplnorton]

You know when I get in this situation when I'm trying to figure stuff out. I just lay out my research and see the pattern. So Let's just lay out the names of the Marines on these cases and see where they were. We can't prove which case was shipped when. So lets see what the pattern is by the Marine. Because we can prove that. And we can also date them by the Rifle Serial number. We know when the rifle were built, so they can't be made before that date.

But Jim go ahead and post the names of the guys you said were in France and a pic of the case, and I will add them in as well and show all their details. That way we can just lay this all out.

But right now I know of six that are supposed to be out there. With only three that I have seen pics of. One of the six I imagine is a fake, and one of them, I don't know if it exists. I sort of doubt it. So I think we mostly going by 3 or 4 right now. The interesting part of all this, I can only prove two of these guys actually had anything to do with Snipers. Even though sniper school attendees are listed in the rosters, I only show Estock and LaValley being there and both were late. The others do not seem to have any connection with Sniper School.

1) Gunner Steve Estock- 8 loop, Rifle Serial 620XXX. I left out the last three. But it Looks like late 1917 he was attached to some Recruiting Div, Dec 1917 he is attached to the 125/126 Co 9th Regiment Cuba. He was in Cuba through April and transferred to the Supply Detachment Quantico on May 2nd 1918. Then in June 1918 he transfers to the Overseas Depot Quantico VA. Then I show him being a instructor at Sniper School between Aug 25th, 1918 till Sept 19th 1918. With some time on leave in there as well. Then on Sept 20th he transfers to the 11th Regiment.

2) Sgt Leslie La Valley- His career is almost identical to Gunner Estocks. But I have never seen a case attributed to him. I think someone said once there was one, but I have never seen it. I have only seen a rifle range book with a 671720 serial and it also says Cuba on the book. Which he left Cuba in early May 1918, so the book had to date before then. Which since I have been pulling rifle serials from the archives, there are a lot of regular service rifle serials in this 670 range. And it would have been a very tight timeframe to get a WRA Sniper rifle to Cuba before early May 1918.

3) Adolph A. Groupe- (6 loop) No rifle serial number listed. Brophy Boook . I do not ever see him attending sniper school. Looks like he started with the 101st at San Diego in late 1917. Early 1918 and basically till the end of the war he was with the 102nd Co Naval Ammunition Depot NY. Which seeing all the ammo testing they were doing with Telescopic sighted rifles, it might be possible he got it during this time. He joined the 11th Regiment on Nov 12, 1918. But I don't show any sniper schoool training for him.

4) Private G.C. Chandler (Senich book) Rifle Number 672932 Does not list 6 or 8 loop, but Senich says the USMC contract is 6 loop, commercial was 8. So it is possible this might be a 6 loop. But you would have to find it to be sure. Also Senich claims the name is G.C. Chandler. But I think Senich read it wrong, and the pic seems to show a C.C. as well. And the only match during the war is to a C.C Chandler. But private Clarence enlisted very late, June 1918. He spent Aug 1918 working at a Supply Company, Parris Island. Then it shows him Oct through at least Feb 1919 as being attached to the Rifle Range Detachment Parris Island. So he could have got that case there. I do not show him ever attending any Sniper School.

5) "Damerow" (Senich Book) Rifle Serial Number 673181 not pictued only detailed. But I find no Damerow's that served during WWI. So it might be fake, or some other explanation.

6) M.H. Van Camp (8 loop) Rifle 645991 case from Julia Auction. June 5th, 1917 Enlisted, spent till July, 1918 at the Marine Barracks Naval Yard New York, July 5th 1918 He joined the Headquarters Overseas Depot Quantico VA, and August 26th, 1918 He is transferred to Co. M 3rd BN 13th Regiment. I do not show him attending a sniper school in the rosters.

[JWM]

Thanks for the answer, Steve. My question was simply one of many thoughts I had once I finished reading the exchange of comments. You are probably correct in that the 6 and 8 loop are not being confused.

Brophy mentions in his book that the Marine WWI A5 telescopes were carried in brown leather cases that had a web shoulder strap, and that he has seen examples of them with his own case being marked Pvt. A.A. Groupe. He further states that black leather carrying cases were furnished with post-WWI telescopes purchased by the Marine shooting teams. Additionally, he makes note that the Winchester commercial carrying case had decorative tooling and eight leather loops for the strap, whereas the Marine type case had only six loops.

Judging from the above information one might draw the following conclusions:

1 - That the 6-loop Marine carrying case was not available to Marines until after WWI.

2 - That during WWI, Marines carried their A5 scopes in brown 8-loop carrying cases.

In terms of the WRA document and the 1919 date concerning the 8-loop case, it might be possible that instead of 1919, it was 1909, which is about the time the A5 made its debut...but that's just a guess. What I would do here, Steve, is go to the Winchester Arms Collectors Association and ask them about the Winchester (commercial) A5 scope case as to when it was first advertised in the company's catalog along with any descriptive information. Someone there should certainly be able to help you about this subject.

As to when the shipment of the subject scopes to the Marines stopped: Way back in the cobwebs of my mind, I seem to recall that shortly after WWI, the Marines ordered a relatively large shipment of A5 scopes, but I could be wrong. Should this old memory be correct, it goes without saying that any A5 scopes the Marines had on hand before then would have been from an earlier order(s). I believe the two earlier generations of the Marine Van Orden family, was in on both deals to some extent...but here again, I'm working on some very old memories and long lost references.

James

[clintonhater]

What I would do here, Steve, is go to the Winchester Arms Collectors Association and ask them about the Winchester (commercial) A5 scope case as to when it was first advertised in the company's catalog along with any descriptive information.

Scope was first advertised in June, 1910, but not listed in the full catalog until 1911, an original copy of which I happen to have; case is priced, but not otherwise described. Until the end of production, Winchester catalogs reprinted exactly that same A5 copy, except that all references to the B models were deleted beginning with the 1918 catalog.

First cases were a pain to use, as both mounts had to be slid all the way up to the top of the case, the lower portion being a narrow tube only large enough for the scope tube.

[cplnorton]

No it's always nice to have people look over the same info. Sometimes people pick up things that someone else never thought of. It's always nice to brainstorm, and someday I might even find a document to prove you are right. You never know.

But what you are saying from Brophy's book, that is really similar to my thoughts as well. But I will add the Caveat that Brophy was knee deep into the WRA documents. It was very obvious when I first got the docs and started to compare them to his book. You could follow along to where Brophy was getting a lot of his info.

On the shipment of A5's post WWI, yeah the Winchester ledgers show a large shipment of Telescopic sights going to the Marines.

But I appreciate your insight on this. It's always nice to brainstorm!

[clintonhater]

...But I will add the Caveat that Brophy was knee deep into the WRA documents. It was very obvious when I first got the docs and started to compare them to his book. You could follow along to where Brophy was getting a lot of his info.

Very evident from his uncritical repetition of the "compensating errors" malarkey, dreamed-up not in an optics lab, but in Winchester's advertising dept. Had he run that story by an optics engineer, he could have laid that myth to rest, but instead he perpetuated it.