WWI Sniper Scope Cases

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

....On the shipment of A5's post WWI, yeah the Winchester ledgers show a large shipment of Telescopic sights going to the Marines....

I suspect those scopes were never delivered. Troop strength after WWI dropped to 17,000 men by late 1919, early 1920. Considering they already had one scope for every 17-Marines in the Corps, why would they need more scopes? In 1939, the Corps still had about 900 A5 (type) scopes in storage (from the WWI sniping program). What happened to the additional "large shipment" of A5 scopes?

jt

[JWM]

No it's always nice to have people look over the same info. Sometimes people pick up things that someone else never thought of. It's always nice to brainstorm, and someday I might even find a document to prove you are right. You never know.

But what you are saying from Brophy's book, that is really similar to my thoughts as well. But I will add the Caveat that Brophy was knee deep into the WRA documents. It was very obvious when I first got the docs and started to compare them to his book. You could follow along to where Brophy was getting a lot of his info.

On the shipment of A5's post WWI, yeah the Winchester ledgers show a large shipment of Telescopic sights going to the Marines.

But I appreciate your insight on this. It's always nice to brainstorm!

Steve, I forgot to check my library. I have a set of books that are Winchester Catalogs that date from 1885 to 1918. I seldom use them at all, but this is what I found in them: The first catalog that the Winchester leather scope case appeared in was "CatalogueNo76 June 1910." It appeared in most all of their catalogs up through 1916, and there was only one description that did not change over this period of time, including the picture of the scope case in each catalog. Here's how they read: "Telescope Sight Case." as header. Description: "Winchester Telescope Sight Case, heavy russet leather, strap lock and handle." "List price, each....$3.50" End quotes.

The picture of this case looks very similar to the bottom case in Promo's attached thumbnails

Senich shows a picture of an 8-loop leather scope case on page 11 in his book U.S. Marine Corps Scout Sniper World War II and Korea and makes note that it is "Believed to be the 'Marine Corps standard' referenced in the Handbook of Ordnance Data (No. 1861) dated 15 November 1918...and commercial carrying case adapted for military use by the addition of a shoulder strap and loops for same."

Comments: Given that the Winchester commercial leather case pictured in the company catalogs during the subject time frame, could be made to look exactly like an 8 loop case with nothing more than "the addition of a shoulder strap and loops for same" being added to their standard commercial scope case and lid, in place of "the strap lock and handle" features, Senich appears to be correct in his statements, that look to support Brophy's statements as regards this subject as well.

Steve and Jim: The later shipment might have been Lyman 5-As rather than Winchester...my memory to this end is really bad. Steve, thanks for the info on the later shipment of Winchester scopes.

[cplnorton]

Senich shows a picture of an 8-loop leather scope case on page 11 in his book U.S. Marine Corps Scout Sniper World War II and Korea and makes note that it is "Believed to be the 'Marine Corps standard' referenced in the Handbook of Ordnance Data (No. 1861) dated 15 November 1918...and commercial carrying case adapted for military use by the addition of a shoulder strap and loops for same."

Steve and Jim: The later shipment might have been Lyman 5-As rather than Winchester...my memory to this end is really bad. Steve, thanks for the info on the later shipment of Winchester scopes.

I will have to check out Senich's book tomorrow when I have time. I haven't picked that one up in a long time either. But is Senich saying the A5 cases are referenced in the Nov 1918 Handbook of Ordnance? I have that Ordnance book and I'm pretty sure nothing is mentioned in there on the actual cases. It does have a little bit of info on the 1st Contract 500 order by WRA, but that is only about a paragraph. But I will get that one back out and look again, but I really don't think there was anything on cases in there.

On the Lyman 5A. Yeah Senich's book says that got some of the Lyman 5A scopes. Which those weren't made till like 1928/29, when Lyman bought out the WRA A5 design. But I think he is only basing that off the Frank Mallory Docs. The Docs that Frank found are not as complete as the ones you find now at the archives now. So I could see looking at the packet that Frank sold, one could assume they did buy some Lyman 5A's. But seeing the rest of the documents it really paints a different picture.

But I think where the confusion lies on those Lyman 5A's, is when you look at Frank's packet and those WWII Marine docs in there. The Terminology on the A5 is all over the place. Almost every document you see on the A5 in WWII, they seem to name it a different name. Like for example they call them Lyman 5A, Lyman A5, Winchester 5A, A5, A-5. Basically the terminology on the scopes is all over the place on the A5's. There is nothing uniform. And I personally think Senich was reading these documents and just figured since they used the Lyman 5A name, they had to have them.

But if you go to the archive now and pull the files for the Mariens from 1919 to 1940. It's pretty clear when you start reading those, that a Lyman 5A purchase never happened. Those records are pretty detailed of the Telescopic rifles in between the wars. And I have documents buying scopes from Fecker and Lyman. But none of the Lyman purchases were for the 5A.

I just think Senich was reading those WWII docs and just was confusing the terminology.

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

Please allow me to explore this post war shipment of A5 scopes (no 5A's until 1928). As I pointed out before, the Corps already had a scope for every 17-Marines in the Corps. That is excessive to say the least. The Corps I know didn't have enough field jackets in 1970 to equip every Marine. We trained with M-14's that were worn out, to be polite. I had a 5-digit SN M-14 that blew its bolt vertical during my Qualification. My spotter put it back together and handed it to me. It did not repeat its performance, but needless to say, my tension at every shot did not lend itself to a fine score (I had been tied with another Marine for the highest scores all week). If you tell me this same Corps ordered a bunch of scopes, not needed by any means, post war while trying to shelve all the extra equipment they had from the war (by starting an Ordnance Section at PD), I must admit to a certain degree of doubt. Scores of contracts were cancelled at war's end, bankrupting many businesses that had dealt with the government in good faith. Why would this contract not be cancelled? To what purpose were these scopes acquired?

We know the Corps had trained Marines to repair optics (and still do). They were fully capable of repairing any scope they had that malfunctioned. The Corps throws it away, you can be assured it is junk! The OSD trained snipers permeated the 11th and 13th Regiments, and were separated as soon as their feet touched mother earth after their return to the states (many had been retained to police Germany after the war). The 1150 or so scopes previously acquired were now surplus (only about twenty or thirty guys on the R&P Teams). What was the impetus for acquiring additional scopes? The attrition rate of scopes on R&P Teams was essentially nil. In 1939, the Corps had 875 (?) or so scopes in storage at PD. These scopes represent what remained of the WWI A5 scopes purchased to train the 400 or so 11th and 13th Regiment snipers who never went to war.

My point is this. The Corps certainly had no need for additional scopes, so why order more when contract cancellation was the post-war solution to government procurement issues. Where did these scopes go? They seem to have disappeared, if they ever existed at all. WRA had problems meeting the initial orders. Did they expand their work force to meet this particular demand? I don't think so. I do know there were Corps plans to order additional scoped rifles as OSD turned out trained snipers (475 in all), but that all came to a screeching halt on 11 Nov 1919.

Document or no document, I have my doubts they were ever delivered, if they represented additional scopes not ordered in the 1150 initially ordered. Could you be looking at the delivery of the last of the initial orders?

jt

[cplnorton]

I suspect those scopes were never delivered. Troop strength after WWI dropped to 17,000 men by late 1919, early 1920. Considering they already had one scope for every 17-Marines in the Corps, why would they need more scopes? In 1939, the Corps still had about 900 A5 (type) scopes in storage (from the WWI sniping program). What happened to the additional "large shipment" of A5 scopes?

jt

This is what I can find on it Jim. The contact was marked as completed by WRA in 1919 and they were paid for it. It was also not in the cancelled contracts that WRA detailed as the govt cancelled at the end of the war. So just cross referencing about three seperate areas in the WRA files on this file, everything shows it was paid for and shipped.

On the counts, to me the counts don't really work unless they got another shipment. There were a 150 rifles done by Niedner in 1917. And 500 mounted by WRA in 1918. So that is a possible 650 scopes total. I know from seeing the France documents, that they were having a lot of problems with the A5 sights breaking in France. A lot were unserviceable and going to a Depot over there for repair and they were doing all they could to salvage them. And it sounds like they were failing miserably. So it's unclear how many of the ones used in France even would have made it home. But it doesn't sound promising.

But right now you have a possibility of a max 650 scopes at the end of WWI and probably a lot less. But the count you are referring to was at the beginning of WWII, and that count was for (887) A5 scopes. Which the Marines detail they received in the last war.

But this is where it gets sort of interesting. In the Marine docs my buddy pulled, the 887 were just spare scopes by themselves. There is another count that I do not believe anyone is aware of yet. This count was at Philly for the amount of Telescopic rifles with sights attached in storage. This hasn't been published yet and I didn't find this one, so it's not mine to really say the details on.

But in a nutshell at the same time Philly did that count on 887 A5 scopes, there is another count on Telescopic equipped rifles with scopes that was also done at Philly. These were not rifle team rifles, as you can find inventory on the telescopic team rifles almost every year in the docs. And those rifles were seperate in all the docs, and very few in number. These just seem to be A5 scoped rifles with the scopes in storage and there were actually a good number of them. It also mentions around this time that Telescopic equipped rifles were issued out to the fleet. But I don't have a precise number on the ones issued as I do the ones in storage at Philly.

But already without figuring in the new ones my buddy found, there are more in WWII than WWI. So that shows they got some somewhere. But you figure in the ones my buddy found, with the 887, the ones that probably became unserviceable or were lost, and that 2nd contract with Winchester. The numbers really seem to add up. Then you figure in that from the WRA side they show paid for and shipped. So to me it just all adds up as they got that second contract.

[cplnorton]

Document or no document, I have my doubts they were ever delivered, if they represented additional scopes not ordered in the 1150 initially ordered. Could you be looking at the delivery of the last of the initial orders?

jt

Ok now I get where you are coming from and why it doesn't make sense to you. I'm guessing you are thinking the Marines received the 2nd order of 500 scopes from WRA.

Jim there were four orders of A5 scopes placed with WRA in the war. A 500 and a 1000 order was placed by the Marines, for the Marines. And a 500 and 400 order that was placed by the Army procurement Div. All four are different WRA contract numbers, so all four seperate contracts.

The 1st order of 500 placed in July 1917 by the Marines were the ones that WRA mounted and actually shipped during the war. The 1000 order placed by the Marines doesn't show completed till 1919.

The 500 and 400 orders to the Army procurement are questionable if they did ship. It's not exactly clear. Like with the Marine order I can cross reference the contract numbers in all the ledgers to make sure they were completed. But on the Army orders it's not as clear. They might have though. i really can't prove it 100% either way. But again if they did ship, it was again not unitl that 1919 timeframe, same as the 2nd shipment to the Marines.

But yeah I think you must have saw something about that the 2nd 500 contract order to Army Procurement and thought it was going to the Marines. But that one honestly wasn't. But I think that is where you were getting that 1150 number. 500 + 500 + 150.

The Marines only got 500 from WRA during the war, and then the 150 from Niedner. You can also confirm this also by the Nov 15th Ordnance manual listed above, which also details they only got 500 during the war. Which it's interesting to note they don't even count the ones Niedner did in that report. I think Niedner was blacklisted honestly as his FBI investigation was still going on when that book was printed. But that manual was also printed before the 2nd Marine contract would have came in from WRA. So that is why I think the 2nd contract was listed.

And that also would explain if the Army procurement orders shipped why they are not listed as well in that book. They too would have shipped after that book was written.

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

Upon return from France, all seven-eighty-deuce equipment was confiscated upon embarkation. The 400 or so scoped sniper rifles would have been sent with the other rifles to PD for inspection, repair, and storage. I believe the scopes were not on the rifles when turned in, but where carried separately. Most of the known named scopes/cases all had one thing in common. I can just imagine the confusion and chaos at the embarkation point as so much seven-eighty-deuce gear was turned in. I suspect the "scoped rifles" in storage at PD, to which you refer, were the sniper rifles that were turned in as each Marine was separated from service. If my sources are correct, those rifles were pulled from storage in the '50's and destroyed (just the receivers - the rest was mostly salvaged). I was told by an old Marine that he personally half-filled a 55 gal drum with D&T'ed receivers and some barrels from which he could not separate the bases. Totally hear say evidence, but he described the rifles in exact detail. He added one detail that I found to be significant. He said a few of the rifles had their bases soldered onto the receiver and barrel in addition to being screwed on. The only rifle I have ever seen that I finally believed to be a Niedner rifle has its bases soldered and screwed. I could see the solder line beneath the bases. I think I know why they were soldered (something Niedner did not do on his commercial work).

jt

[JWM]

I will have to check out Senich's book tomorrow when I have time. I haven't picked that one up in a long time either. But is Senich saying the A5 cases are referenced in the Nov 1918 Handbook of Ordnance? I have that Ordnance book and I'm pretty sure nothing is mentioned in there on the actual cases. It does have a little bit of info on the 1st Contract 500 order by WRA, but that is only about a paragraph. But I will get that one back out and look again, but I really don't think there was anything on cases in there.

On the Lyman 5A. Yeah Senich's book says that got some of the Lyman 5A scopes. Which those weren't made till like 1928/29, when Lyman bought out the WRA A5 design. But I think he is only basing that off the Frank Mallory Docs. The Docs that Frank found are not as complete as the ones you find now at the archives now. So I could see looking at the packet that Frank sold, one could assume they did buy some Lyman 5A's. But seeing the rest of the documents it really paints a different picture.

But I think where the confusion lies on those Lyman 5A's, is when you look at Frank's packet and those WWII Marine docs in there. The Terminology on the A5 is all over the place. Almost every document you see on the A5 in WWII, they seem to name it a different name. Like for example they call them Lyman 5A, Lyman A5, Winchester 5A, A5, A-5. Basically the terminology on the scopes is all over the place on the A5's. There is nothing uniform. And I personally think Senich was reading these documents and just figured since they used the Lyman 5A name, they had to have them.

But if you go to the archive now and pull the files for the Mariens from 1919 to 1940. It's pretty clear when you start reading those, that a Lyman 5A purchase never happened. Those records are pretty detailed of the Telescopic rifles in between the wars. And I have documents buying scopes from Fecker and Lyman. But none of the Lyman purchases were for the 5A.

I just think Senich was reading those WWII docs and just was confusing the terminology.

Good Morning Steve,

I interpret the text and the picture to mean: That Senich, at the time the subject book went to publication, felt that the referenced picture and text aptly conveyed his best understanding of the type of scope and scope case that was viewed by the author and those people in the know, "Believed to be the 'Marine Corps standard.' and therefore the standard issue items that were in use by their snipers during WWI. Which is to also say, the Marines of that day and time were using a commercial Winchester scope case that had been modified with a shoulder strap for military purposes.

James

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

....A 500 and a 1000 order was placed by the Marines, for the Marines. And a 500 and 400 order that was placed by the Army procurement Div. All four are different WRA contract numbers, so all four seperate contracts....

The Marines received 1650 A5 scopes, or 1650 scoped rifles?

The 1st order of 500 placed in July 1917 by the Marines were the ones that WRA mounted and actually shipped during the war. The 1000 order placed by the Marines doesn't show completed till 1919.

The original 500 were drop shipped in early 1918 in several lots to two different locations at different times. That 500 rifles coupled with Niedner's 150 would have armed all four regiments. What happened to the 1000 remaining rifles shipped in 1019? I am assuming they were mounted since they didn't need 1000 replacement scopes for the 650 (less attrition) they already had. Straight to PD OS?

You are right in that I believe there were two lots of 500 rifles and one of 150 for a total of 1150 scope mounted rifles. Now you have upped that ante by 500 rifles?

jt

[cplnorton]

The first order of 500 was mounted by WRA. The second order was placed at the height of the war and was only for the scopes, spare parts, and everything to attach them to rifles.

In the documents, Philly had been building up for several years to do everything in house. And by 1918 in the documents they are pretty much ready to go. And you see parts for rebuilding rifles coming in.

WRA was training, in house, Marines on how to mount and repair these scopes starting in mid 1917. And it looks like they had a pretty detailed class going by the WRA docs.

The 887 number of spare scopes you see, I would guess are most likely the ones left over from that 2nd contract 1000 number order. The ones mounted on rifles in storage and also issued out to the fleet, I imagine were the ones left over the ones actually produced during the war.

There were new ones produced as need. So that will also figure into that somewhow. But that number seems small until they made a nice little batch of new rifles for training in 1941.

[1903fan]

JT, thank you for a great break down of all of the ins and outs of this subject, I have learned a lot over the last few days browsing through old posts!

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

The first order of 500 was mounted by WRA. The second order was placed at the height of the war and was only for the scopes, spare parts, and everything to attach them to rifles.

The war was essentially 160 days of intense combat, and a lot was done in those 160 days. Considering the order of 500 would cover all the 475 trained snipers, I can see how there may never have been a second order of scoped rifles. Of the 475 snipers trained, only about 350 were intended to serve as snipers, thus the reduced number of rifles needed.

In the documents, Philly had been building up for several years to do everything in house. And by 1918 in the documents they are pretty much ready to go. And you see parts for rebuilding rifles coming in.

The armory at Philly was put in place post war to handle the huge number of arms being returned from the war. During the war, there was a ginormous repair facility built in France to rebuild weapons, including rifles and scopes. Even SA was forced to sent armorers to help man the facility, and undoubtedly, the Marines did likewise. No one was shipping rifles or scopes home for repair during the war.

WRA was training, in house, Marines on how to mount and repair these scopes starting in mid 1917. And it looks like they had a pretty detailed class going by the WRA docs.

To be expected, as the Marines repaired all their own weapons, to include a scope repair facility at the previously mentioned ginormous French/American armory. The Corps armorers were mounting scopes on 1903's long before the war started, and hardly needed WRA to train them to do so. Repairing A5 scopes was a different matter all together.

The 887 number of spare scopes you see, I would guess are most likely the ones left over from that 2nd contract 1000 number order. The ones mounted on rifles in storage and also issued out to the fleet, I imagine were the ones left over the ones actually produced during the war.

At that time, I suspect there were very few A5 scoped rifles "in the fleet" due to lack of need. From the tone of the letter, I suspect the writer was trying to convey the number of scopes available for their purpose at the time. Prior to the second war, the Corps was very small in numbers and scattered all over the world.

There were new ones produced as need. So that will also figure into that somewhow. But that number seems small until they made a nice little batch of new rifles for training in 1941.

Considering the number of scoped rifles on hand from WWI, and the total number of men in the Corps after the war, there is no way they ever needed more scopes or scoped rifles in the period between the world wars, with the possible exception of the of the rifle team scoping "pet" rifles.

Ain't history grand?

jt

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

JT, thank you for a great break down of all of the ins and outs of this subject, I have learned a lot over the last few days browsing through old posts!

You are welcome, sir. Although a tiny aspect of the 1903 legacy, it is a fascinating one. I always liked the "why" of history versus the "did" part. Once one understands why things were done the way they were, the way it was done becomes so much more clear.

A good example is why didn't Sam Houston execute General Antonio Lopez de Santa Ana after defeating his army? The Texans slaughtered his soldiers, and to a man wanted to shoot Santa Ana, but were stopped by Houston. No one could understand why. According to Mexican history, it was because Santa Ana was a Mason, as was Houston. A Mason is prohibited from killing another Mason, which was a very big deal in those days. Not so much anymore, which is a pity. Santa Ana would return from exile to fight us again when we invaded Mexico.

jt

[cplnorton]

Jim everything I'm saying is taken off the official Marine Records. Someday I will make public all these documents, I think then it will make a lot more sense what I'm saying.

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

Jim everything I'm saying is taken off the official Marine Records. Someday I will make public all these documents, I think then it will make a lot more sense what I'm saying.

(The documents you reference are public records now).

I have no doubt of that, Steve. No doubt at all. But documents do not history make. If you believe official" Marine documents, Col. Wise was incompetent and a coward. Post war analysis reveals Col. Wise was one of the bravest of the brave, and a leader from the front who accomplished much with very little from those that would vilify him and his actions at Belleau Woods. If one reads the copious, detailed documents of Operation Sea Lion without any knowledge of history, one would have no doubt Hitler invaded England in WWII. Don't misunderstand, documents are wonderful sources of information, but they must be viewed in light of historical fact. I have documents that refute several of your statements you say came from your documents. I don't think you made anything up, as I believe you believe your documents back up your statements. I have no doubt I am right in some respects, and I believe you may be right in others. I told you a long time ago that it would be a good idea for us to work together and form a consensus; but you chose not to, which was certainly your privilege. Therefore, we now disagree on several points of fact.

By the way, the "Cody" documents you kept telling me about - don't exist at Cody. They aren't "Cody" documents at all. For everyone who might be interested, all military related WRA documents are located in the National Archives. This can be verified by contacting the Cody museum.

jt